I never liked the 04 style at first, but it is growing on me. Much like the 05 Mustang. I hated the way that thing looked at first, but now I'm excited to start seeing them on the road.

GTO Judge looks like a ricer "car"

The 2 door GP concept is so sweet.

Yeah i originally hated the 04's. i thought the 97-03 style could have went for years without much change but the change is good. DOnt knock it until you try it!!!

This reminds me of when I got the '99 Mustang GT. You had guys who had a hard time with the carved lines of the new look. When they first came out, a lot of folks broke bad on them. Eventually, everyone warmed up to them, and they became more popular than ever.

I was really attracted to the GP's during the whole "wider is better" promo. I actually prefer the more understated stance of the '04+. I think they did forego a little bit of aggressive appearance for a classier, lighter, athletic look. I think the '04 was a nice evolutionary step for the GP. They made some nice improvements in performance, handling, and interior design as well. What we are witnessing is Pontiac trying to key in on the performance euro-sedan market instead of the 30-40 something American male that wants a family sedan with a dose of American muslecar nostalgia. They obviously got to me, though I love the '97-03's too.

Due to demand from gearheads? That's such a load of you know what. If GM did anything due to demand, they would've put a frickin 5 or 6 speed in the GP 5 frickin years ago. I don't believe that GM does anything due to demand. If low sales was a reason for putting a 400hp motor in a car, then why discontinue the Camaro and T/A. With that logic, I should be driving a new 400hp T/A right now. What are we idiots? Somebody prints that garbage and we're supposed to believe it?
Jack

Speaking about the 03's styling, I do prefer it to the 04's, both inside and out. The 03's curves made it sexier than the 04's with its strait lines and sharp angles. The 04's interior has a cheapness about it that the 03 didn't have. I fully intended on keeping my 03 forever but just too many problems. My 04 is a better car. Better handling, braking, and riding. The bose stero in the 03 was better than the Monsoon in my 04 and the overall quality of the interior was nicer in the 03 as well. But the handling(not acceleration) of the 04 is so superior to the 03, I don't know what I could've done to the 03 to make it handle like the 04. It's that much better. I'll be modding my 04 one day as soon as the verdict comes out on the valve float issue. I didn't put upgraded valve spings in my 03 and it would rev up to 6300 from 1st to 2nd.

jvojr is right, it's a bunch of b.s. They only hear what they want. That's why they don't make any of their 6-cyl cars in stick like everyone wants (I emailed them about that awhile back and they claim "low demand"), that's why the Monte Carlo is v-6 fwd and that's why the Aztek went into production as ugly as it is (no offense T-bat).

I wouldn't be that harsh. It's a little different. When the Grand Prix was offered with a stick, back in 1991 or so, hardly anybody bought it. The Grand Prix is a family car. Look around... More people buy SE than GTP. So of course if you compare the number of people that bought the stick, to the number of people who bought a GP (all inclusive), it seems to GM nobody wants a stick. Look at Acura, they dropped the CL for the same reason.

The GTO is a little different, because pretty much the only people who looked at the GTO were people who knew what a GTO was, and what the name meant. Normal people would look at the car, and be like "WTF", why should I pay $34,000 and not get Navi, Sunroof, Climate Control, etc. So all you have left, are the enthusiasts, who knew what a GTO was. The real super enthusiasts/Gearheads, were the ones that bought the GTO sight-unseen, before the dealer even took delivery. So in that case, I can understand where the article is coming from.

The F-Bodies are also a little different. I know it was supposed to be the pony wars, but I remember somone explaining that it was meant to be cheap and fast. (As a side note, I think I saw more women driving Z-28s then I did men... At least when I was in college I did...)

Anyways, I remember people saying that the F-bodies weren't making sense anymore, becuase they weren't all that cheap anymore, and they weren't real practical, weren't refined at all, and were only considered sporty in a straight line, compared to the sporty models coming from Japan, and the plummeting sales seemed to back that up, which is why I thought they were dropped. This is why I thought the Holden was brought over in the first place, because it was more refined, and fit the tab better according to what GM thought the consumers wanted :rolleyes: Better handling, better engine, more refined, much better interior, and somewhat practical, in that you can actually fit people back there


As a side note, I think it's easy for GM to plop in the LS2, then it is for them to try and design a manual transaxle from scratch. I heard another primary reason for deleting the stick from the GP, was that it couldn't handle the power output of the DOHC V6, as it kept self destructing, which is another reason why I heard that engine was detuned. The prototype engine made 281hp, but production models only made 215 or 225 I think. Similar to the 300GPX making 300hp, but detuning it to 240hp to save the 4T65-E.

and what do you mean, "Like everyone wants?" If you look at the numbers for the Honda Accord Coupe, for example. The number of people that get the V6 with manual, is MINISCULE compared to people who buy the auto, and even more MINUSCULE compared to the people who buy the 4 banger. Just because us enthusiasts on this board want the V6 with a stick, doesn't mean the majority of america does too...

Anyways, that's my 2 cents...



bryan

What about the TL and every Bimmer? All family cars, all luxury(sp?), and all offered with a standard, even the wagon. I think the automatics are also 5 or 6 speed. GM is not giving us what we want. If they did, we'd have at least a 5spd auto. Or how about a factory installed LSD? The tranny in the GP has always been the weak link. The ratios are too wide and they have a real failure issue(read the thousands of posts on all the web-sites about people with broken trannys). You would think by now they would have changed the tranny instead of just pulling timing out of the shifts. If they ever change the tranny. I will be the first in line to swap mine out.

I would have to say that I agree with both parties.

The demand for an automatic transmission on almost any car now days is most definately quite a bit higher than the demand for manuals, I would have to say out of the average everyday car buyer, only around like 3-5% would absolutely not settle for anything but a manual, everyone else just deals and complains(this means you and me), however.....

Take for instance a mustang....small compact sports car, ive seen it used as both a grocery getter and a 10 sec drag car. Now out of the factory these cars arent anything special, hell, A GTP stock would smoke the piss out of a Mustang GT stock and every model mustang all the way down to the 4cyl is avail in manual, Anyhow, the GTP car is actually just a package that is added on to the GT, or considered an upgrade. If Pontiac had any desire at all to please its speed enthusiasts they would have made the manual transmission an option in the GTP package, and for god's sake, they would have upgraded the tranny. You cant even hit 300whp on those things before the damn things explode.

Pontiac pleased our eyes and our asses with the GP's comfort and style now they are pleasing our need for speed with the ugly ass GTO.

All I got to say is there better be somebody somewhere workin on a dress up kit for that plain, sorry excuse for a 21st century muscle car

Well said.

AED is making a body kit for it. They haven't released much info on the kit, but as I hear they did alot of improving on the back of the car.

Well, actually, the TL did not offer a stick until the 04 model year. Only reason it comes in a stick is because Acura dropped the CL. People on the Acura boards are crying the same thing. "Everyone wants a 6 speed coupe". Then they are pissed that they dropped the CL, and even more pissed that the TL does NOT offer a LSD like the CL did. According to Acura sales though, I think something like less than 2% of TL sales are for the 6 speed or something like that. What about the Lexus GS and SC? They don't offer stick either, yet many consider the SC to be a "Sports Car", and the GS to be a "Sport Sedan". Doesn't everyone want a V8 with a stick?

I heard that the 4T80-E tranny won't fit in the W-Body. It's in the new Bonny GXP though... The GTP really needs a 5 speed auto though, the gears are too far apart at certain speeds. That's why I looked at the CTS, but I couldn't find anything from GM that fit all my needs, that's why I wound up buying an Infiniti G35 Coupe. I still love my GTP though...

A-HA. Standard or auto?

Finally, a drop of sanity in a sea of misinformation and misconception....

maybe there is some hope.....
L67 Cavalier
This guy put a L67 in his cavalier and he's using it with the stock 5-speed getrag that came in the 2000 Cavi's.