ZZP Centrifugal S/C...

Ok. I think I have made up my mind.

For a while I thought th fastest 3800 engines were only 11 second engines. I got a lot of heat from my friends because I wanted to "corn out" my car when the fastest I could ever get it would be over 11 seconds.

Well, now ZZP has a 9 second 3800 and I consider myself cleared to do some REAL work on my car.

A set of Flows and a PVC CAI isn't modding, it's just me trying to make my car seem less like it is; a granny mobile ('98 GP SE 3800 w/ the bench seat up front)

So. If I can build up the cash for it, I'm going to boost my SE. Here's where I'm stuck.

How?

I can't decided what to do.

Sure, I'd love to through an M90 on my baby and hear her whine at WOT. It's half the price too! But at the same time...

Why not play with some big-boy toys? Why not get something with some stones? I'm talking turbos and centrifugal superchargers. It's like +$3000 but with 60hp on a stage one cent. S/C kit, how can I go wrong?

So I guess I have made up my mind, unless you guys can sway it. I wanna go with the Cent. S/C kit.

But the next question is; What else do I need?

Cams?
New K&N filter?
Colder plugs?
180* T-stat?
GTP radiator?
New plug wires?
PowerTuner?
AerForce scan gauges?
ZZP PCM?
Headers?
Ported manifolds?
3" DP w/ HF cat?
U-bend delete?

How supporting stuff do I need before I can throw the beautiful work of art onto my baby?

BTW, I'm going to e-mail this same post, give or take, to ZZP and see what they say.

Thanks for the help guys.

Get the XP cam, AL103's, 180* thermo, headers, and you'll definitely need the Aeroforce gauge (way to scan) and Powrtuner to make adjustments. Other than that... scan scan scan and tune till you can't tune no mo!

I've got the novi1000 centrifugal kit. Of course I'm going to say go for it!
M90 setup will be your best cost-to-performance in most cases.
The novi kits are easier to install.
The novi will sound way cooler, and will turn some heads... you won't have to be WOT to hear it whine and chirp.
Some other benefits are the temperature/effeciency and the centrifugals are nicer to your transmission (depending on power output).

For supporting mods... well for the first month or so after putting on my kit, I really didn't have any supporting mods except for the 180 t-stat (intense pcm and wizaired intake came out). Clamped a 9" K&N cone right to the novi's inlet. I did have the aeroforce scanner--highly recommended-- and saw a few degrees of KR once in a while.
I'd recommend getting the power tuner if you are going to go any farther with the kit.
It would be good to have the downpipe/ubend delete asap in order to kill off any possible KR. GTP radiator not necessary at all. ZZP pcm not necessary, just get the PCM that comes with the novi kit if you want.

Ported manifolds/cams/headers are all nice additional things that will allow you to drop pulley sizes and make more boost and power easily. By the way, swapping pullies is really simple on this kit.

The novi1000 and 2000 kits have really nice potential. You can push them further and further without needing to worry about anything. You can always slap on the intercooler for it down the road. Matt from zzp made I think 485 engine hp with the novi/cam/headers/IC setup. Not too bad.

Bill

An eleven-second car is corn?

I think you need new friends.

Little pick-me-upper: Getting s/c or turbo on your car will probably yield better gains than us factory-charged people, because of your taller gearing and high compression. I wanted to turbocharge my old GT .. just didn't, and still don't, have the money.

FYI the ZZP m-90 kit with a 4" pulley and L-67 injectors dynos at 250whp a good 80-90 whp over stock ,and a 11sec car is corn get real, big toys are for big boys not bench racers and wanabees.Chico. :rolleyes:

I'd say skip the centrifugal and go turbo...

You'd still need all the same supporting mods as the s/c though...

And ya know, an 11sec street car would be awesome... =D Too bad I don't have that kind of money at the moment.

i think everyone knows what i think he should do. but like chico said, an m90 adds 80-90 h.p. for wayy cheaper than a CSC. but its something different, and zuul seems to love his!

So I could say, buy this kit and bolt it to a stock SE or GT and not worry TOO much about the car dying?

I figured on the Aeroforce gauges, felt I would get the dual set-up and a boost guage. Is there an A-pillar set-up for GPs that has 3 gauge pods?

As far as going further, with the immense price tag on the CSC kit, I'm JUST looking at bolt-on and go power here.

Maybe down the line I will get stuff like headers or cams to increase power and maybe drop a pulley.

But for now, I just want the kit on the car. Nothing too rough on my engine yet.

Is a PowerTuner ABSOLUTELY neccesary? Firstly, I have NO idea how to tune. Secondly, I don't have a laptop to use with it. I own a $2500 computer, I don't need to spend $1200 on a laptop to tune my car.

When I bought my DHP PCM, I never swent my core back so I still have a stock PCM lying around. Can I send that to ZZP and have them kinda *rough* tune it for my mods or is it something they would need to be IN my car to tune for?

I'm just trying to gather the MINIMUM requirements for safe operation of my baby. So I need to know EXACTLY what needs to be on my car before I buy and install this kit.

And speaking of installing the kit; Zuul, did you do it yourself or somebody else? And if you did it, is it easy and something that can be done with the engine still in the car?

That's my other big concern. I CANNOT take the engine out myself and I don't have anybody qualified to do it either.

You could some how scan the file of a few runs in your car and then send them the PCM. But they can't get it perfect. Rough like you said. Best would be to find someone who can tune you, learn from them, and what not too.

I'll try to help you out here. This forum needs another centrifugal!

I've had mine on for over a year with absolutely no big issues. Stock engine internals and transmission. It is said that the CSC is easier on your transmission than the M90 would be. It makes sense: the M90 kicks boost in right away, the CSC will put your into some boost quick then gradually built it up to your peak.

Aeroforce gauge will be great. You can monitor KR to see how dangerous of a condition your engine is in when beating on it, monitor O2 to see if you're lean or rich by a lot, and LTFT (fuel trims) to see how far off your basic fueling it. Theres a ton of other parameters too. There are 2 and 3 guage pods available.

stage 1 base kit will be fine to start with, but if you want to go ANY further, you'll need the stage 2 stuff -- you can always do that later, too. Reason is that the stock GT injectors could be maxed out. Stage 1 you might be fine with GT injectors but if you wanted to go any farther you'll need GTP injectors (such as the stage 2+) I swapped GTP injectors into mine right off the bat. The PCM I got with it was programmed for that change, and I also got the fuel calibration unit, which serves two purposes: 1) allows you to rough-tune it yourself if you don't have a powertuner, 2) scales the MAF sensor frequency down so you don't exceed the maximum allowable frequency. The PCM would be programmed to compensate for the scaling-down.

You should just get the stage 3 instead. It comes with a good-enough tune. Otherwise the stage 1 won't really require a tune.

Get an aftermarket downpipe. Maybe if you buy it with the novi kit they'll give you a discount. Get one with the cat if required in your area. Any downpipe will take care of the u-bend as well. That along with an air intake (which you could just clamp a cone to the CSC, or you'll have to make your own CAI/FWI). And t-stat.

I did it all myself, with a buddy around to help. It took a solid day to do. I did 3 gauges the same day, and thats what seemed to take the longest! Oh and you don't have to take the engine out. Goes in easy. Their instructions are pretty well written. The oil return line can to your oil pan in place of the low-oil-level sensor so you don't have to take it off and drill.


Dunno if I mentioned it already... but if you plan on taking the setup much farther down the road (anything with cam/headers or much smaller pulley), you will probably need a powertuner. Cheap laptop with serial port can be had for <$350 and so can a tuner. You're not TOO far from zzp... you could always drive there for a tune if you needed.

you could always drive there for a tune if you need


lake michigan is an awfully big lake to drive around, unless you take the ferry which is rather expensive... from what zuul said, youd be better off buying a cheapo laptop

Those CSC's are pimp schtuff... I wanna see this happen.

Well. I've made up my mind. I'm going to do it. Stage 1 for now, maybe pick up GTP injectors because my DHP PCM is already pushing out more fuel.

But I don't know how I'm going to pay for it.

I have a savings account with $12,000 so I can, of course, pay for it now and up front.

However, I was thinking of taking out a $4000 loan from my bank, like a 6 month so the intrest isn't REAL bad. That way, I could build up some credit because I only have a debit card right now.

What do you guys think, mighty gurus of financial knowledge?

Easy. Get headers, cam, intercooler, and zzp tranny!


make sure you tell ZZP about the injectors... you'll need a means of adjusting fueling. probably ditch the DHP for their PCM, programmed with injector changes. well if you go that far, might as well do the stage 3 kit so you get 1) fuel injectors 2) their PCM 3) MAF calibrator
and then you'll get more boost too.

So get that stage 3 kit, a downpipe, 180 tstat, and you should be good to go!

Let's see here.

Went and got a 180* T-stat and installed it yesterday. Dropping my car off tomorrow morning at my friends shop so he can flush and fill with green stuff.

Also ordered a 2.5" DP w/ Cat and a P-log last night.

Going to order 2 Aerforce scan gauges, boost gauge, and A-pillar mount from pfyc.com when I get my next check and transfer $4k from my bank account.

So I'll be set I think.

DP and P-log -> $360
Gauges -> $510
Stage 3 CSC kit -> $3822

Final total of current upgrades = $4,692

I feel like a bad person because I'm buying this. I know once I get it and install everything I'm going to love it. But for the 2-3 weeks it takes to get here once I order it...


DO you know how many Ethiopian children I could feed with that money? That's spending $100 every day for a month and a half.


... I'm a bad man.


BTW zuulmusic, what's your mileage with that kit on and how hard do you drive?

I personally would've gone with the 3" D/P. For N/A applications the 2.5 is fine but since you will be boosted you might need that extra 1/2"... who knows...

Anyways, SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!!!

See I thought about going 3" but here's why I went with the 2.5"

With Roots blower, you get the most overall power (torque and hp) at the lower end of the RPM range. Once you get into the higher end, the draw of the pulley on the drivetrain actually steals more power and produces less power (though you do have more boost)

CSC's are designed like a turbo. They produce little (or turbo'd, no) power on the low end and steal power from the drive train. But once they enter the mid-high RPM range, they provide much more boost in a more gradual fashion that the engine can handle better.

So with a CSC, I'm actually not pushing much boost over natural asperation and succeed in only reducing my low-end power. And if I were to have a 3" DP, I would lose some back pressure, and thus, torque on my low end.

So having a CSC and a 3" DP will cause a likely noticable drop in my low-end.


ALTHOUGH, this is a DP and not a manifold or header so all that information I just gave might be completely false.

In either case, 2.5" w/ Cat is still better than 2" stock with a chocker cat.

And yes, I read a LOT about S/C's and turbos from sites like Wiki and howstuffworks.com

I think the downpipe issue is debatable. At first I had my stock downpipe on with the kit, and now I have a 3" downpipe on with the kit. Soon I'll have headers ... but I don't recall ever really losing power. The novi still moves a ton of air at low rpm, even when far from boost.

Pull your charge pipe off (between the novi and throttlebody) and you'll see what I mean even at idle. Someday I'm going to connect a big hose to the outlet of the supercharger and have a killer leaf blower!
electric leaf blower = 100cfm
nice gas leaf blower = 400cfm
novi1000 leaf blower = 900cfm

Anyway back on topic... regardless of your other mods I think your car will feel stronger down low. Midrange power will be sweet even when you're not in boost, and top end power will... you'll find out!

What's your mpg zuul?

I was getting 29hwy but lately its about 23hwy. City lately is 18. I wanna say its because my copper AL104's are long overdue for a changing! They probably look horrible. I'm saving the labor for header day. I don't think the novi is bringing it down much cause when I have it bypassed my MPG is about the same.


Why are you getting two aeroforce gauges? You can always scroll through them to look at other stuff. I just think it would be more useful / cheaper to get a guage the aeroforce can't monitor... like oil pressure or something.
By the way, you could install an oil pressure electronic sensor at the same time as the novi kit. You'll be pulling out the stock dummy light sensor and replacing that with the pressurized oil line to the novi1000. you could install some brass fittings there and put an electronic gauge sending unit there. I had to use a couple brass fittings and it kinda took forever, and leaked the first two times till I got better fittings and used teflon tape (I know, its brass...).

Someone did their homework! Nice info... wasn't trying to call you out on that, just cause I have no idea how those work, and the 2.5" vs 3" D/P is always debateable no matter the application. Props once again.

I wanted to get 2 gauges because the A-pillar set-up with 2 gauges looks goofy so I figured I could spring for a second aeroforce and a boost gauge and make it nice and pretty.

Forgot to answer your other question... I like to think I take it easy for the most part, but I have my fun daily. The daily downtown commute sometimes requires a WOT pass to liven up the morning, although I usually don't even have to leave overdrive to pass somebody normally.
Also half the time if I beat on it, I don't keep WOT through a shift, for my tranmission's sake.

When are you putting on the CSC kit?

Well, I'll be buying it between this weekend and the next. ZZP says 2-3 weeks shipping so I'm looking at the begining of May.

I meant no bad intent drummerboy.

Maybe there are some lurkers on the boards thinking about doing what I'm doing.

Maybe I just felt like flaunting what little car knowledge I have.

Maybe I need to go to bed, it IS 12:15 AM.

I think I'm gonna hit the hay. My fiance' PROBABLY won't be awake and notice that I came to bed a full hour after I said I would. She may be up reading though.

Ah well, she knows that when she goes to bed, that's my time to use my computer to check my mail/boards/learn new stuff/buy new parts.

i know you did your HW and everything, but you are still pushing boost through there. I would have gone with a 3" DP. I had an N/A L36 before with a 3"DP and saw little/no torque loss. But, its still going to be sweet!

Well now I'm irritated.

I just ordered my gauges and A-pillar mount off pfyc.com

And then I went to ZZP and ordered my CSC kit.

I click the continue button and then it brings me back to the billing pack I just left, saying that there was an error in the processing and my payment has been declined.

Well, I have debit card. You know what that means? My $4000 is locked up for 2-5 days, and then I can try AGAIN to pay for my kit.

So now my $4000 is gone and I can't even put it back into my savings.

For the big stuff I ordered through ZZP, I used direct transfer through paypal.

Yeah, I sent my money onto my paypal account.

I just hate having to wait 3-4 days for the money to show up. And that's business days.

Ontop of the 2-3 weeks to ship the kit. And it being shipped ground.

I bought my DP and P-log on Tues. night and they still haven't shipped it yet.

patience. ZZP is a very good company when it comes to customer service. i have always had good relations with them (along with 99% of people). But i know the feeling of wanting it NOW!

Yeah, the wait for this stuff is almost as bad as waiting that last week for Halo 2.


BTW, I have a question. I had a warped front-right rotor (or so I thought) for a while. Just this month, I bouth a brand new set of rotors and they have warped again, or so it feels.

My friend says that it's waaaaay too soon for them to be warped and asked if it happens all the time or if it doesn't start until I've been driving for a bit.

Well, it doesn't start until I've used the brakes 3-4 times to stop.

He says that what he's heard of on GPs is that the calipers, something about them goes offset when they warm up, and it kind of kicks the rotor a round a little bit.

Anybody heard/know of this and any fixes?

Oh, and I'm going to go with black calipers I think, maybe a black wheel hub too.

Edit: Took pics of my car today! My gf doesn't do the best job framing the shots but her camera has great resolution. Cropped em but they may still be too big.

Update:

Nothing has shiiped yet. Everything is in the processing stage. I expect things to start shipping Wed.

Paypal should have the transfer done by Tues so I'll order the CSC kit Tuesday night.

With any luck, I'll have everything by the middle of next month.

I'll be sure to take pictures for you all.