Resoultion *FOR REAL SHE STARTS!!!!!!!!!*

she doesnt want to turn over! checked the volts and the cap both are reading at around 12 to 13. It sounds like she wants to turn but she cant.. cant remember if thats the starter or the alt. any insight will be helpful....i think the curse of the 97 is starting to plague :rolleyes:

if its not wanting to start but is turning over, maybe try like the fuel pump resister or something, because if its turning over but isnt starting its not getting fuel or spark one of the 2

Did you get it tuned yet?

nope zerg check my other thread.... i dont think its becasue im not tuned i think like i said above just cant figure which one...

CPS?

Ok, so the car ran after the top swap. Were you messing with something earlier today?


thats only on GTP's.

wait, re-reading it sounds like it won't turn over?

turn they key but nothing? not even trying to crank or what? if thats the case then its not Crank position sensor.

I would suspect your starter, not your alternator.

do you have another PCM you can try?

its trying to crank but it doesnt have the power to finally turn... i didnt drive it at all today only thing i did was take pics for steve....

got another PCM?

Have you tightened your power terminals and ensures they arent corroded?

Even a battery showing 12.5 volts may not be able to supply the cranking amps to force the starter motor to turn. Have it load tested!

First try another battery ,check all connections to battery an alternator,you have probably been doing a lot of starts without running very long ,it's common to have some bugs after engine work .Chico(pops)

did you do a case learn when you put in the PCM ?

did you try rocking the car? put the car in Neutral and let it roll back some.... sometimes these cars can get a dead spot in the starter or something can cause it to not want to turn over.

other things to look/listen for....
-the fuel pump powering up at key on.
-if the lights dim when turning the key
-the specific sound the starter makes when cranking.

did you try jumpstarting it?

i tried to jump start it last night did nothing but it did get close to almost starting. lights come on and dont dim that much. dont know the sound for the fuel pump. im gonna get the battery tested today

if you just turn the key to acc., you can hear if it is priming. it makes a whining sound.

Also, check to see if youre getting spark

well just replaced the battery and still doing the same thing. havent tried to roll it backwards but its making a hissing sound after u try to start it im thinking maybe a bad pcm...

after work tonight im gonna try and capture the audio and also the sound of the hissing sound right after trying to turn it over. oh and im also getting an ses light now too

what's the code?

dont have a scanner!!!!!

autozone does them for free i think.

no way i can get the car there...

oh right lmao.

You need to check fuel and spark.

Walmart has OBD-II scanners for like $20, I don't know how good they are but it's worth a try.

I don't know as much as the other guys about this stuff but could the car not be getting fuel and that hissing sound be a leak somewhere in the fuel system?

i checked for fuel today, i disconnected the line and turned the key fuel came out... so thats a plus im thinking of replacing the starter its only 25 from zz

Just get one from your local parts store. I don't know how much more expensive it will be but you'll get it a lot faster.

did you check for spark?

well i disconnected the 6th wire from the coil pack and it sounded the same when i tried to start it...

Does the motor spin? If so the starter is a non issue.

idk if this will work but give it a try, its zzp's security re-learn-


1. disconnect battery

2. Install new computer

3. Reconnect battery

4. put emergency brake on to disable daytime running lights

5. make sure all doors trunk and hood are closed leave driver window down and reach in threw window

6. try to start. If it doesn't start, leave the key in the on position for 10 min on 97-03 cars and 15 min for 04 and newer cars. The security light should turn off after this amount of time.

7. turn off ignition for 3 seconds

8. Try and start the car. It probably won't start. Repeat step 5 two more times.

9. If this doesn't work disconnect battery for 5 seconds and then try and start the car.

Notes: If your car starts at any time and stays running, you are done. If your car starts and dies, try step 9. If it dies after 2 seconds after you have done these steps, you either have a bad FP resistor or the security setting in your PCM is wrong and it will need an update. Security relearn procedure will not work with the valet key!

yea the belt spins but like i said after i get done trying to start it i hear a hissing sound like an electrical sound and it goes off after a few seconds

ok just got to looking over stuff i overlooked before, but the fuel pump is turning on i am getting fuel. as far as the spark i disconnected the one wire sounded the same. battery is new, alt shouldn't be causing an issue and the starter is all but canceled out due to the belt spinning. the hissing sound i heard was determined to be the head unit. but at all could this be a bad pcm? when i turn the car to the on pos i get a oil light bat light and ses light. i dont have the normal rmp "heartbeat" i normaly have and when i hooked up my scanner to check for ses codes it tells me there are none....

Here's a couple of ways to check for spark:

Disconnect one of the plug wires from a spark plug and place the end of the wire near a metal surface on the engine. You can insert a small Phillips screwdriver into the end of the wire (the plug boot), or a small bolt or nail to provide a conductive path. Then crank the engine and look for a spark to jump from the screwdriver, bolt or nail in the end of the plug wire to the engine. If you do not see a spark, there is an ignition problem.

Remove a plug wire and insert an old spark plug or a spark plug tester into the end of the wire (the plug boot). Place the spark plug on a metal surface on the engine, or ground the spark plug tester to the engine. Then crank the engine to check for a spark. No spark indicates an ignition problem.

ill check the spark tonight but if it was something with that wouldnt i get a code thrown? i wasnt getting anything when i plugged the scanner in

your scanner won't detect any codes if your engine isn't throwing them so plugging it in without an SES light isn't going to do anything.

no when i put the car to the on position i get an ses light, a battery light, and an oil light

will you just check for spark. it takes 2 minutes and will tell us a lot.

lol sorry corey i will do that tonight

alright i tried for spark stuck a long enough screw in and aimed for the block nothing tried 1 3 and 5 nothing also replaced the coil pack 1/4 with stock still nothing

have a friend that has a spare pcm that im waiting to see if he still has it im going to pick up and try...

bad CPS could cause no spark.

did you pull the harmonic balancer when you top swapped? or are you running one belt?

just got back from driving to jersey to pick up the pcm, installed it same thing..... looks like im back to square one.

yes i did install the gtp harmonic pulley i will be running 2 pulleys

Im betting that you crushed a tab on the CPS sensor.

how is that possible? it ran fine since the 10th...

forgot about that part. No spark usually means the CPS is bad or the ICM harness gets crushed. Since you have been messing with the motor, it could be either of those two.

edit: is there any way you can get your hands on a scanner that reads rpms?

i dont know i might... what will that tell me?

While cranking, the motor should read a few hundred RPMs. Its more than likely the crank sensor.

Try unplugging the camshaft sensor and start it. The PCM will bypass it.

and that is located where?

The camshaft sensor is in the timing cover, below the water pump: http://mykidz.net/GTP/Images/CrankPosSensor/images/RemoveSencor_JPG.jpg

so if its that just by disconnecting it, it should start up fine? if not going after icm?

just thought i mention that when i did the top swap i remember seeing my friend wire the pink wire for the bbv solenoid into the icm wire harness im going to double check that and see if that might be where the issue is

i cant get the cps plug disconnected fat fingers dont fit, but i followed the wire and it doesnt seem to be crushed at all. im thinking its got to be the icm cause if i should get impulses from that, that is prob what shows up for my rpms and im not getting that

anyone have anything else i can try while i wait for the icm to come in?

are you sure your getting no spark?

I wouldn't use the nail thing, too many things can go wrong.

I would use the second way that he gave you. Take a spark plug, put it in the end of the wire and make sure the plug end is grounded to something metal, ie the top of the motor.

Then turn it over and see if you get spark, that would be a more tried and true method.

No tach reading while cranking? If no needle movement CPS is shot.

the needle doesnt physically move while cranking. you really need to get an RPM reader that you can put in an OBD2 port. Im betting that youre going to get a reading of 0. and then you will be able to really narrow it down

no before this happened when i put my car to the on position my rpm would move a little bit. I was told this was normal for the 97 but now im not getting that bounce...

if i get a reading of 0 what then?

they make specal spark plug testers that one end goes over the plug and the other connects to your wire, and it lights up if there is spark check local parts store for them, eather CPS or something

If RPM is 0, i would guess its a CPS.


Another thing to check the ELEK IGN fuse. And it would help if you could disconnect the cam sensor to see it it works.

Edit: have you looked around at the ICM harness to see if its snug? or anything is frayed?

yea the harness is fine, like i said i put in for a new icm should get it the end of the week. ill recheck the fuses. where is ELEK IGN fuse located? inside the fuse box under the hood or inside?

i dont know. I am 2 hours from my car, i cant help you out there. I would imagine that its under the hood.

hmmm like i said i have no way at getting to the cps sensor its a tight fit and my fingers cant get back to the tab to disconnect it im hoping its the icm im getting a spark tester tonight and going to triple check that is the issue

not the cps sensor, the CAM sensor.

where is that located? nvm thats what i tried and i cant get to the tab to disconnect it it seems fine i followed the wire up nothing seems to be crushed ...

http://mykidz.net/GTP/Images/CrankPosSensor/images/RemoveSencor_JPG.jpg

on the left of this picture. just beneath the water pump

edit: isnt there someone with small hands that can get to it? take off the water pump pulley if you have to. Thats only like 4 bolts

the water pump pulley isnt in the way... i took off the smooth idler pulley but the tab is right behind the harmonic pulley, very little room with the pulley still on,

in that pic there are 2 wires the one on the far left i did disconnect and tried to crank it and nothing the one that shows its disconnected i cant get to

hmmm, every write up ive found just says to disconnect it. They dont say anything about removing the balancer.

which wire is it that u want me to disconnect, the left one or the right one? if its the left i did that and nothing changed

found out what the first issue was....

drum roll please.....

the icm harness was disconnected plugged it in fired right up...

finished plugging everything back in went to start it nothing replaced the coil pack again to the stock, still nothing

then i got smart and listened for the fuel pump its not coming on checked both fuses the one seemed fine the other i cant tell its a relay one ...

was it nice to hear it run again lol go back remove one thing try it .. to narrow down the prob.

it was beautiful to hear it run sucks about the pump i think im gonna have to upgrade to the bigger pump and wire harness

are you positive it s the pump ?

i dont hear it priming so its got to be it... all i hear when i put turn it to the on position is the radio no priming and it did this the other day then worked fine... does that mean i need a new pump?

I never hear my pump prime. Get a guage and see what your fuel pressure is.

i heard it the other day and i disconnected the fuel line and nothing ...

what relay where?

holy crap it never ends lol sucks...

lmao i was checking the parts where it runs down by the belts and near the coil pack didnt think to check that it was disconnected i thought it was connected correctly now to find out the plastic pin is gone ill prob zip tie that to keep it from disconnecting..

last night i ordered a fuel pump rewire so hopefully its an electrical issue which should be bypassed by the new harness

I'm sure I will get other hate again. Maybe it is sign that you need go back L37? Supercharger kit cause you lot of different problems for over 6 pages.

So are you just a glutton for punishment or just trying to be a troll?

ROFLMAOOL!!!

It was joke.

back to topic... good luck to figure it out...

what is your opinions on the fuel pumps? if this wire harness doesnt work should i get the top of the line or stock... another thing is what is different about each wire harness? they vary from 30 to 90 dollars? I went with prj harness i love their stuff...

i would just go with a gtp pump and stock harness.


edit: have you pulled the fuel line off to see if its getting fuel? Get a FP gauge before you go spending all this money on a pump and stuff. There is one at summit for like 30 bucks

Seriously.... you just enjoy having to put your $.02 about it in every thread. And its an L36, not L37.

Go back to being slow

my opinion on fuel pumps, go with an 04+ GP pump, i was having problems with my pump and i had zzp install an 04+ and never had problems again.

It is CALLED joke. geez people in forum never understand this...

Cause it's not all really that funny and it's legs wore out the first day.

Some things you can get miles out of others shuold just die a quick death.

Then I'm sorry...

I move for a permanent ban! Who's with me? Vivre la révolution!!

lol j/p Palsut.

i already disconnected the fuel line nothing is flowing...already checked the 2 fues under the hood both look fine

Have you tried swapping relays? If so and no joy then I'd go with the fuel pump after you get all your wirring woes fixed with dangling clips etc. Make sure all the wire harness are in good shape. Take your time get a light and a mirror and check. If your satisfied with the wires then I'd say next step is a new pump.

There should be a fuel pump prime terminal in the underhood fuse box. You can try putting 12 volts to it, and listen for the fuel pump.

The PCM will shut down the fuel pump two seconds after the ignition switch is turned on, if it doesn't see reference pulses from the CPS while cranking.

Palsut is the L37 your next project or secret project for next year?
His 6 pages are diagnosing his cars issues.
Your 13 pages of a thread lead to nothing.

just go back to topic to help poor guy's car problem geez... :rolleyes:

where is the fuel pump prime terminal in the fuse box? im going to try and replace the relay tonight, also is there a resistor too?

this wont work cause the 2001 changed to the plastic tanks whereas mine is steel different setups

They showed it in the wiring diagram; it's usually a single gray wire with a connector (knowing GM, they probably buried it inside the fuse box!).

Here's the info on the fuel pump relay: Fuel Pump Relay
Local parts stores didn't have it, had to get mine from the GM dealer. The other relays are 4 terminal, so you can't swap them. The resistor is only on GTPs.
What good is a multipurpose relay, if they only give you one?

is it the same wire that zzp shows in the instructions for their rewire kit?

and i can only get the relay from gm?

You're in luck, AutoZone does have a listing for it: Fuel Pump Relay

so all that would be preventing the pump is the one fuse and one relay? there isnt much besides that right?

Other then wiring.

is there any diagram of the wiring

ummm wow that helps just a lil confused

after giving another look at it might be a bad relay or pump doubt the harness is that bad...

Replace the relay first, then turn the key on (With your radio off this time.. :p ) and listen for the pump. If it runs, but doesn't pump fuel while cranking, chances are you have a bad CPS or ICM. That's why you have to check for spark; no reference pulses from the CPS/ICM causes the fuel pump to shut down.
While you're at it, take out a couple of spark plugs, and make sure they're not gas fouled.

head unit is still disconnected lol, ill buy the relay and get a volt meter as well, if i dont hear the pump prime could it still be the cps or the icm? but remember it did start after i connected the harness but i think only cause there was fuel still in the line i dont remember the pump priming that day...

is there gas in the tank?

yup last i checked the night before i put a full tank of pure 93

After replacing the relay, if you don't hear the pump prime with the key on, try thumping the fuel tank with a rubber mallet while the key is on. If the pump runs after that, then I'd suspect a bad fuel pump or connection.

thats what i did the last time and it seemed to work...

If that's true, then you've needed a new fuel pump and filter for the last eight pages of this thread... :p

time for another laugh... replaced the relay i got from advanced auto went to go crank it no power.... im like wtf i just replaced the battery and put new mounts on top for the system, which right now is only one amp and cap powering my inside spearkers and for my hids... i doubled checked the power bolt and it seemed not bolted in right disconnected tried a few things then reliazed its too big and the power wire has room to play.. so i got the new bolt on it and made sure its tight checked the volts from my alarm im only at 10.8 and my cap isnt turning on which i could care less right now... so im gonna try and jump it maybe the pump isnt getting the correct power to prime.

oh and the new battery was installed incorrectly that day my friend came over and he checked it over...

how do you install a battery incorrectly?

i thought it went in on an angle but when i looked again it was longer so it wasnt letting it get tight...

just checked im now getting spark gonna have the battery rechecked tom if that comes up with nothing then im gonna have to order a new pump

Sounds good...replace the fuel filter as well; your new pump will thank you!

Dude you need to check the obvious, and seriously physically check things. Can't assume it was working last time.
Take out the plugs, check the ICM harness, check the battery, don't assume this stuff is new or installed correctly. Just look it over.
If the pump isn't getting enough juice, it won't want to work. Is there enough voltage, 10.8, to get the pump to work?

still no solution yet theone?

not really an update but i got the harness in yesterday tried to install it but with all the rain i said forgetaboutit... haha but i got the hotwire installed i think it looks clean and everything is connected im running to the parts store to have the battery checked when i checked the volts today i was at like 9.7 so i dont know hopefully ill have an answer today, if not then its time to order a high flow pump and new fuel filter. i checked mines today and the thing is already looking like the stock one i got the zzp high flow last year but no harm to replace again...

Punctuation!

well i got the new pump in today but i cant install it yet cause my fuel bucket isnt the same. It doesnt have the Venturi pump feed, by the way what does that do? I have tracked down and bought a used bucket from cali that should be here by friday. So by friday night or sat morning i should have a working car again...

i installed the new pump nothing im not hearing it prime.. im gonna double check the relay and fuse whats the next step?

if its not priming then you need to check the relay.

Do you have a multi meter?

yes and im not getting any volts at the relay, corey i already replaced the relay

What about upline from the relay?

what do u mean?

another thing im just checked is when im trying to crank it my dic and radio reset which that never did that before .. can it be an ignition issue?

is power going to the relay?

Ive seen a bad ignition switch play havok.

Make sure the Radio fuse in the underhood fuse box isn't blown; if it's good you might have a bad ignition switch or a wiring problem.

How hard is it to replace the switch? Where is it located? Ill check the raido fuse today but if that was it would my raido still power on?

Here's a write up: How to Replace Ignition Switch \'97-\'03 and the part: Ignition Switch

So u don't think its the radio fuse then? I'm going to the jy to get a stock relay and ill pick up a switch too

i cant get the cylinder out.. i found a hole the only thing that fits is a bobby pin but it wont release it... the neg is disconnected

my aftermarket alarm cant prevent my pump from priming correct?

i ripped out the top plastic piece for the steering console, found out i was aiming for the wrong spot.. got everything disconnected after work all i have to do is drop it an pray... what is the next thing i should look for if this switch doesnt work?

Another GP!
JK
I'd get some local help maybe.
Recheck everything once again to make sure things are connected properly.

yea im getting really tired and frustrated with it that i ripped the top plastic off of the steering column cause i couldn't get the cylinder out... oh well ill buy a new one later..

replaced the switch still nothing...

I know that the stock alarm system disables the fuel pump when armed, so your aftermarket one may do the same thing. Just something to consider...

i was thinking that too but with the new switch installed, i havent spliced it into that can it still be a factor?

just thinking if it supposed to prime for 2 sec by the time i get to the fuse box should i still be getting volts at the relay? or would i have to be there within the few secs

bump

Try it.

i was able to get volts by touching the end of the wire and the other end to the battery it was reading around 11 something, when testing the connection at pump for either one i wasnt getting anything how do you ground the wire for the multimeter?

place the negative lead of the DMM to any UNPAINTED portion of the block or frame.

Wow... over 10 pages and still nothing? Maybe time let pro fix it? It seems you couldn't find the problem for doing it yourself.

Just give you a advice...

Dude you need 12+ volts.

ok i am getting power to the pump.. the battery is giving me around 11 volts and the pump is getting a lil more the 2.... im going to demand a new battery, y am i only getting so few volts at the pump? bad ground?

Possibly. You getting 2 volts at the pump?
Take the rewire off and check it and then check it after you connect rewire.
check your stuff bro.

well no luck on the a new battery but i am getting 12 now at the battery and 2 something at the pump which i didnt get before ...im gonna try to bypass the hotwire if that doesnt work i have 2 stock pumps to try...

just tried connecting another pump up using both stock and hotwire neither will kick on the other pump... im gonna run through all fuses tom...

Yah 2 volts to the pump isn't cutting it, as you can see.
Drawing power somewhere, or loosing it on the way.

You've got a wiring issue between the relay and the pump.

here are my numbers to the dot.

with the car off
Battery is giving me 12.27

with the car to the on position
battery drops to 11.99
relay is getting the 11.99
at the pump on the stock harness its at 2.82
hotwire doesnt get anything by itself
gets the same juice when the stock is connected to it

i have also checked all fuses both inside and out...

could it be some type fuseable link that went bad, how many volts should the pump be gettin?

Are you using the meter on the rewire end near the pump, seeing what volts are on it?

yea im getting no volts on the hotwire back near the pump

Need to go to fuse box, and check around there.
And your thread title is miss leading.

GP.net is letting you down, as well as you not checking everything! shame

what do you mean i have checked all fuses inside and out i tripled checked everything that i know to check. im thinking i might have a bad ground for the hotwire... i should be getting volts from the hotwire

Need to check in the fuse box, open it up, on the underside where all the wires go into it. And run the meter there, where the wire goes to pump.

i did and i get volts on like 1 of the wires...

Just wondering, how many volts should the fuel pump be getting? From what I've read, I imagine there may be a wiring problem between the relay and pump (as someone already said). I had this happen on an older car and one day the car stalled while driving. I could hear that the pump wasn't priming. It took a while to find it but I found that mice had partially chewed through the wires near the fuel pump and the pump wasn't getting enough power. Replaced the wires and the car started and ran better than it did for weeks. Damn mice! Kill em all!

Also, theone2043, you have to start diagnosing more thoroughly before ordering parts. I'm no Sherlock Holmes, but you are gonna end up replacing the whole car before this is over.
Seriously though, good luck.

after talking with steve and going out and relooking over things and thinking, i decided to swap the pcm again. the new gtp file now doesnt show boost like it did the first time, then it hit me stupid me when i swaped pcms before and when i went to put it back the old way i forgot to disconnect the battery. so in turn disconnected the new pcm and part way installed the old one until it sparked which reminded me to disconnect the power. after reading somethings could it at all be possible that the pcm is the culprit now?

it's very possible. May have fried that old computer. Or bad tune.

when you are checking for power at the fuel pump, you are having someone else turn the key to the "run" position, right? the PCM will only send 2 seconds worth of 12v to the fuel pump unless the engine is running.

aside from that you might check the connector in the trunk too. its to the right of the fuel pump cover plate, its silver and has 2 screws holding it down. if someone messed with the wiring at that point its probably corroded and junk.

turns out after looking a diagrams and what not i was checking the wrong wires i just checked now with the car to on the grey pump wire is not getting anything, i will have to get someone to try to put it on the on position while im standing there with the multi. on the wire.

what are u referring to in the back of the car? i dont think i have that with it being a gt?

yes you do. I have a GT and I had that very connector out when I re-did my fuel pump wiring.

they use crappy 18guage wiring.

if you look in the trunk, lift up the carpet, its not as far back as the fuel pump, but when you lift up the carpet you will see it on the right hand side about halfway back

also the gray wire goes up to the underhood fuse box. it goes through a few connectors on its way. but no fusible links.

I ran a 12 gauge wire from under the hood, all the way to the trunk. You could stop there, but I also replaced the wiring from that connector I just mentioned above, to the fuel pump.

I just do it on a grand prix, I don;t want to be stranded because of the 18 gauge wire going bad. it happened to me on a 98 chevy 1500 pickup too, same deal 18 gauge wiring.

is it besides the wheel well or in front of it?

its on the trunk floor to the right of the spare tire.

I will take some pics in a little while of some of this stuff for you.

by the way it has a silver cover on it, with 2 screws holding it down. you will see the wires coming from the rear seat area going into this. (they are inside a black sheathing)

found it, my amp rack about flattened the wires... but they dont seem to be broken

did you check the connector that is under that silver cover? that is what I was really wondering about.

no not yet didnt have the tools ill check that tom...

here are a few pics. I know you found the connector already, but I am posting the pic anyway.



Here is my new ground point for the fuel pump and the sender. (and yes I ground the paint off...lol)



Here is the relay I added, this part isn't really necessary, but sometimes that is how I do things. I am using the oem under hood relay as the trigger for this relay (using the gray wire in the trunk for the trigger for relay) see all those nice heat shrink connections?



And here is where I ran the 12 gauge wire to for my fuel pump rewire ( I also ran an inline fuse right at the post, so if there is ever an issue of the wire getting pinched, etc, the fuse pops.)



I KNOW I KNOW, "clean up that engine bay"

If he doesn't have it fixed in two weeks, I'll be in Jersey to whoop his tail! and fix his damn gt!(p)

Stupid question but a relay to run a relay? Maybe that's the problem? Did you wire in the second relay properly? People do stupid things all the time not realizing.

thats not my car bob, his car is working correctly

hey now, lol.

there is no reason why that wouldn't work, and it IS and HAS been working fine. You can have 40 relays running 1 relay.

like I posted it is not necessary to do it, but it is just the way I did it on my other 2 grand prixs and going by memory.

Also the underhood relay is in the fusebox, so it would require some extra work to swap the wires to 12 gauge, not too much work, but since I already did this 2 other times and never had any issues, I just did it the same way.

and the relay under the hood is only sending power to the "trigger" of the relay in the trunk.

I bet if you dug into it, there are other systems using a relay to trigger a different relay.

so the grey wire will only show volts within the first few seconds? but isnt that where its getting its power from?

yes, but the pcm only turns the fuel pump on for 2 seconds until engine is actually running. if you just turn the key in the "run" position to test the voltage, you need to do it within those 2 seconds! That is why I said have someone else turn the key on while you test it with a meter or test light.

i dont know if ill get to it tonight but tom i have off u gonna be around tom at all?

well I have a customers car I am working on, but I should be done before noon (west coast time)

well retested the pump feed wire... with it going to the on position i get no volts, with it going to run i get less then a volt.

Ok, tomorrow I am going to take a picture of something and give you a couple things to try. What I will show you will be a sure fire way to see if the gray wire is bad or not. By doing this test, you will be able to know if its the fuel pump wiring, or something else.

like I said before I am busy in the morning, but look for my reply after noon (west coast time).

Since I moved to oregon, I have my friends always calling me to help them with issues on their car. Most of the time I can;t really help them because they no very little about cars, so even if I tell them to do something, they wouldn't know how.

I think there is hope for you though....

thanks the only thing i got going on tom is cleaning the car and random house stuff... ill have it locked right here...

I had a little extra time this morning before heading out, so here is your test! and let me know what you find. PLEASE follow each step carefully, and accurately!

OK, here is your fuel pump relay


and here is your fuel pump fuse, Connect the test light or meter to a ground source,
and then the other end to the metal part at the top of the fuse (key must be in "run" position)



After taking the relay out, Connect a test light (OR a meter) to a 12v+ source (the bolt right above the fuse box
works well), and connect the other side to this tab.. This will confirm you have a ground source
to the relay.


now we will check to make sure the PCM is sending the relay the "on" signal.
Connect a test light or meter to a ground source, and the other to this tab.
now have someone turn the key from "off" to the "run" position. The light should illuminate
for 2 seconds and shut off (or meter will register voltage, and then show none)



IF all of those test are looking good, then we need to go to the final step,
checking the fuel pump feed wire. Using a jumper (like a paper clip) insert it into
both of these tabs, this will provide power from the 15 amp fuel pump fuse, to the gray
wire. Now go back and test the gray wire. if it shows very little, or NO voltage then you
need to run a new wire from under the hood to the fuel pump. PLEASE be sure to also test
the gray wire at the connector in the trunk. If by chance water got into that connector, or somehow
the wire between the connector and the pump got water into it, it would be corroded and offer a very
poor transfer of electricity.

for checking the fuse i was getting volts without the car on

for checking the ground it took a min to find the sweet spot but i did find it and that looked good


for checking the pcm i had like 7 volts and it never died after 2 seconds.

doing the last step with the keys not in i heard the pump kick on the fuel flowing disconnected the line and sure enough it wasnt dry...

If you keep the jumper in for the fuel pump, you might be able to start the car. (pending the pcm allowing it) Doing this would only be a test to make sure the fuel pump is working well, DO NOT leave it like this.

since all the tests look good aside from the PCM test, I think you found the culprit.

this is the point where you re check any connections you previously disconnected. The pcm may be looking for a signal that it is not getting and it won't allow the fuel pump to turn on.

the 7 volts may not be enough to trigger the relay. and you said it stays on, and it shouldn't be doing that.

so should the pump turn off after its done priming?

normally yes. If you jump the connection, its no longer "priming" its just "on".

jumping it will make the pump run constantly, don;t worry the extra fuel is going back to the fuel tank, not into the engine, lol.

but like I said, don;t leave it that way.

and I double checked the manual, and it does show the 15 amp fuse "hot" at all times, so you are OK there too.

with the connection jumped i tried turning it over and nothing happened so that means bad pcm? correct? Also with the connection jumped i hear the pump on and a loud hissing sound coming from the fuel rail but there are no leaks is that normal since the injectors are not flowing fuel in to the motor?

yea that is normal.

I would have to say that its pointing the the PCM being bad.

when you swap pcms, make sure the negative battery cable is off the battery.

the only other thing I could think of is the theft deterrent system. you can see if you have this by taking out the "mall" fuse in the glove box fuse panel (the fuses are labeled on the back of the cover) Then turn the key from "off" backwards, to "acc" you will then here chimes, 2 3 or 4 depending on which BCM you have. if you hear 4 chimes, there may be an issue with the theft deterrent system.

I do not know much about that system. I do know that it can disable the fuel pump, but other than that I am not sure.

since i replaced the ignition switch i have not spliced the alarm in yet...

I haven't read everything about what's going on and some of it I don't understand quite fully but like I said before the stock alarm and possibly your aftermarket alarm disables the fuel pump when armed so if the alarm is not connected it may be permanently disabling the fuel pump, hence why it is not turning on.

Just my $0.02 but it sounds like jaybur has got it figured out for you.

theone2043 ,

what I am referring to is the OEM theft deterrent system. Either you have it or you don't, it is nothing that would get spliced in to the oem harness.

I do know it can shut off the fuel pump, but I don't know what else the pcm does with that signal.
possibly nothing else, but possibly more.

if you could try a different PCM that would be helpful, I'd hate to hear you bought a PCM and then it didn't change the situation...

I am pretty sure 97 needs a 97 only pcm though, so if you do find one , be sure of the year! (love those 97's!)

yea i cant seem to find a gt one so i think im gonna go with a se pcm and then just get it flashed, hopefully this is the last thing to get it running.

yea sorry i have a after market alarm system but ill try the mall fuse when i get out of work today

tried to jump start it last night did nothing but it did get close to almost starting. can you answer a few questions?
1. does it crank over?
2. does it seem to crank at normal speed?

update time... i just got the pcm in tonight. Disconnected the battery neg, discconnected the old pcm reconnected the new one, reconnected the battery. still wont start. jumped the fuel pump and tried to turn it over still nothing... the pump turns on and fuel comes out, motor turns i have yet to try the mall relay will try that now...

disconnected the mall fuse, it only chimed twice ...grrrrrrrrrrrrr
oh and when i was rechecking the signal from the pcm i broke the probe on the multimeter, i think before when i tested it i was at run and i think i meant to test it when it was in on..

did you get the SE pcm flashed?

I was working on my car and was trying to use a GTP pcm, and it would NOT start.

did a FULL write of a GT file, and it popped right off.

and with the new PCM did the fuel pump turn on with the key, or is it still playing dead?

I was just re-reading some of this, and on page 5:

something wasn't hooked up right, or something happened right at that point. if it was running, and then you plugged things in, and its not running obviously something is messed up.

the PCM is probably not getting a signal it needs to run the fuel pump, and possibly not the injectors either.

sorry you are throwing money at this car, there are usually ways to test things before you just buy parts (like fuel pump, etc).

I hope you get this resolved soon though!

Before I reconnected the icm harness, the first day my car wouldn't start the pump didn't kick on then shortly after it did but since the reconnection of the icm harness it hasn't again. With the reconnection of the icm I had the second pcm connected which was a gtp one, and the pump did not turn on I recall but since their was fuel at the motor, it started right up. I shouldve left it running but I killed it within a few seconds. Did the mess up of not disconnecting the battery until it was too late. Can it now be an issue with the file in the pcm? Not having the correct vin number? It might have seen it was different and now triggered the alarm to disable it?

Oh btw I brought a stock 97 gt pcm

I don't think the VIN will matter as long as it is the same year, but I am not 100% on that. It should at least start, and possibly need a case learn but it should start.

I would start looking over your connections for a possible bent pin or something. Or maybe a pin pushed backwards out of its connector instead of making the connection.

I am about out of ideas, without being there in person.

So y is it when u by a new or aftermarket pcm they want the vin?

x2. sorry man. I can almost guarantee that you just overlooked something. You really need to go back over everything. Or take it somewhere to get it fixed.

I really would have to see the car.

alright, well i wandered over to zzpland and looked at their pcm info, well the last step it speaks about doing a security relearn. Can it be? Wont know till tonight but i think that has to be it.... wires all look fine i really dont think its a wiring issue.

If its a security problem, your security bulb will flash when you try to start the car (unless its burned out).

Some girls look fine, and they seem to have issues.
I hope I can help you solve this while I am up here.

im on my second set for the security learn, one thing i didnt take notice to is within a few seconds of the car in the on position the dic flashes 0's for all stats...

Car cranks, just won't turn over.
Red did his ground near battery. Checked wires.
Put in newest pcm.
Pump doesn't kick on when key is in accessory position. Jump relay, pump flows fuel to rails.

are you running the N/A throttle body and MAF or are you running the GTP stuff?

I know that can cause issues too.

but if the PCM is not turning the fuel pump on , then it is not getting a signal from something else that it needs in order to allow the pump to turn on.

just "looking" at wires will not do much. Kind of like looking under the hood at a car lot, all it really accomplishes is seeing if the engine is oily due to a leak. otherwise you are just "looking" at it and its not telling you anything really.

Turn the key to the on position, not accessory, and see if the pump kicks on.

I am guessing he meant "run" by accessory. Or at least I would hope that he would be checking for the fuel pump by turning the key forward!

I hear ya Jaybur, just wanted to make sure...

no that doesnt work, another thing is the dic flashes 0 for each of the 4 settings... another possible bad pcm?

I think something is not connected. *possible* pcm, sure. but more than likely something is missing.

when I apply a tune to my pcm the DIC flashes while its being written, so at that point I'm sure the DIC is not getting the signal from the pcm.

obviously something is not connected somewhere.

is your aftermarket alarm installed in the car at all right now, or is it totally out. I know some wires run to the ignition switch harness, but I'm not sure if there are any other wires the alarm taps into?

is it possible the alarm not being connected is disrupting something else that only turns on once the alarm is powered on?

just trying to cover all bases here.

the only thing i noticed when disconnecting and reconnecting the pcm the plastic piece that goes over the terminals was broken off i just placed it there to see if that would make a difference... not sure the importance of that plastic piece. the aftermarket alarm is is still connected to the stock ignition harness so no it is not connected.

the plastic piece is there to protect the wires, it has no other purpose.

did you put the old pcm back in? if it it only flashing with the newer pcm in, then the newer pcm is probably not working.

i know the first two dont work cause i disconnected the second pcm with the battery connected and whiled connecting the stock one it sparked. the plastic piece im referring to is that which go into the pcm not on the outside. one is clear the other is blue, which is supposed to be top which one should be bottom.

if the pcm is sitting in the stock position, the clear side is the upper one.

and its not good that the plastic piece that connects into the pcm is broken.

maybe that is why the new pcm is not working?

They are labeled, and so is the PCM. It says "Clear" and "Blue" on the PCM itself.

ok so i have it correct, yea the blue plastic was stuck in the stock pcm was able to tip it out but it was cracked so it wont clip back over the pins but i did place it over the pins and connect it the correct way but still nothing...

get another PCM and disconnect the battery before you install it. if you are still seeing '0' on the DIC after plugging the battery back in, problem with the wiring harness seems likely.

that does not sound good! I'd have to see it in person to really know more on what you should do.

can you take any photo's of it?

by the sound of it, something is not correctly connected, and that would make sense why the DIC is flashing, since the pcm is not getting the right signal.

thats what i did with the third one but all three have acted the same

ill try and take a pic tonight of it

sorry for the delay i didnt want to me messing with electrical in the rain but here is what im referring too...

http://s207.photobucket.com/albums/bb195/theone2043/pcm/

I think the plastic just protects the pins from the elements.
I think his pcm's are the issue. Until he can eliminate the pcm, by getting a fresh new one, then we are unsure where to go.
But the fuel pump relay is definitely not getting a signal to turn pump on.
The pump works, via jumping the relay. Therefore
I am assuming pcm issue still.
By the way, I was just up in PA to give Alex a hand.

any local salvage yards have one? or try www.car-part.com I have used them before to find parts.

just make sure you get the right pcm for your car 1997 GT ONLY.

Im sure ed morad has one laying around for cheap as well. At least you could count on one from him to be good. (i bought one from him not too long ago, no issues).

after seeing the plastic pieces I have a clearer picture. for some reason I assumed that the plastic piece itself held all the pins in, but it is actually just a protective piece, as 20gtp02 stated.

find another oem pcm before doing anything else.

The way i was looking at it is yea it may protect the pins but i think its also there to prevent the pins from touching the inside back of the pcm, which may be shorting the pcms out...like a spacer.

and thanks steve for bearing the cold in trying to diagnose the issue

just ordered my second pcm from ed, hopefully it should get her by next week. i hope this works because i dont want to do wiring in the snow and ice ...

Why not, its not that bad! LOL
The funny part is, one usually can get a burn from the engine bay being too hot to the touch.
Well with your car up there, one can still get a burn from the engine bay, but this burn is related to cold @$$ temps!

steve do you really think its a wiring issue or do you feel it was a dud pcm?

wow your still having troubbles with this ... that would suck not having the car for long

Since it's a 97 I suppose you know you have to transfer the KSM from your original PCM?

http://www.grandprix.net/upgrades/pcminstall.html

check that out, refer mostly to line 5.

I do not think that the KSM would cause the fuel pump not to prime though chico. I could see it not starting due to the sensor not reading properly (like any grand prix pcm swap, you COULD need a case learn, but usually not.)

I am not saying it is not necessary, but this is an odd situation (no fuel pump prime).

but I guess at this point, anything is worth a shot!

I did not know that about the 97's, so good find chico!

Would a knock sensor module really cause a no start problem?

that and i did fry the first pcm is the knock sensor any good now?

Well at this point I'd try anything ,and did you remove the small cover and check the module is there even one in there?

it does say that the CPS info is stored in that module, so if you swapped modules you would not need a case learn, so it could possible cause a no start issue. But it does not seem likely it would cause a no fuel pump prime issue.

however, as chico said, at this point ANYTHING is worth a shot!

yea ill try to swap them today after work, it sucks cause it snowed a few inches last night if not ill check it tom on my day off. good thing for birthdays haha.. having this fixed would be really nice.

Did you get the one from Ed yet?
When I saw the 0.0 flash on the DIC, that means something is up, I am assuming another issue with pcm.
I think your wiring is fine, because you didn't cut stuff up, you only added to tapped into some wires for bbv, etc.
I think something with PCM because it isn't signaling the relay to jump power to the pump. When we bypass the relay, you get the pump to work fine.

nope not yet, and i didnt get a tracking number so i dont know when it will be in this week.

just been informed that fedex has dropped off hopefully the winning pcm, im at work so wont be able to try it till tonight but should i swap the knock sensor before installing the pcm? i dont feel that will prevent it from starting...

also u think the ksm is fine and wasnt fried when i fried the stock pcm by sparking it?

only 1 way to find out.... I would try the new PCM first. the DIC should not be flashing, and the fuel pump should prime.

if it does that, but won't start, then the KSM.

keep your fingers crossed!

yea just remembered i wont be able to start the car tonight grrrrrrr but i will be able to check for the pump.

Dead battery? lol

no well i dont know didnt check, lol. no my friends cav threw a SES light scanned it and found out it was misfiring on 4 checked the plug and it broke off at the boot, so i temporally let her use one of mine. our schedules have been conflicting so i havent had the chance to put in her new wires.

just installed the new pcm, no good. same as before. my mechanic next door said not to bother with towing to his shop they wont touch it. so nows the hunt for a shop that is willing to troubleshoot.

WOW!
You replace those certain sensors mentioned earlier in this thread that could cause issues?

Any response on your thread over at clubgp?

i was told the ksm wont prevent from it from starting but i guess i can try it, yea i got a few hits havent been over in a lil while

because it seems like it is a wiring issue is it possible to get wiring harness for the motor?? Or should i disconnect my harness to check and see if nothing is broken??

Actually for the 97 the KSM will cause a no start situation ,only the 97though you should be using the original module from the original PCM .I've used my original module with 4 different PCM's without a hitch.Chico(pops)

the stock pcm i sparked it by accident, is the ksm still good? would it also cause the dic to blink 0's for info?

just try it, at this point what do you have to lose?

fine ill swap that tonight lol, i just thought it would be shot as the pcm does the same thing as all the other pcms

if this doesnt work and the weather permits im taking off my harness and inspecting that

thanks for all the help guys but the weather isnt looking good the next few days, im biting the bullet and having a professional look at it.. i feel so shitty doing this but its been going on too long i need it fixed asap

had it taken to a garage my friend recommend, followed it there then talked with the owner and he said, "I'll try my best, no guarantees." *crosses fingers*

shortly after i went to my insurance agency and wanted to have them refund the towing, but since it was in my driveway its not covered, tried to lie and say i had it taken back to my house to work on it but she didnt believe me, said i should have let it there and been towed from there to the shop, that makes no sense. i dont want to take it to a shop if i can fix it myself. what the duce, i cant win at all...

patience, Alex. Hopefully here soon she'll be back on the road. Know that you had tried everything you could and had finally run out of options and possibilities.

Since you say you are "lied" to them so they have a good reason not believe you for not refund for tow it out of your driveway. Sh!t happen. Accept that. Well good luck for repair.

you could have pushed it out of your driveway to the road.

It will be call insurance fraud. I won't mess with that.

my insurance agent is the best, I give her a scenario, and she tells me the best way to deal with it. she knows her stuff when it comes to the insurance loop holes.

I have had so many different cars so I know her pretty well now, lol.

but if you do not have that kind of relationship with your insurance agent, either ask others first before taking it up with the insurance company, or just deal with what they tell you, its best not to lie to them, in case you need something in the future.

THAT being said, I truly hope it gets resolved with as little $$ as possible, and of course let us know!

I would bet on a wiring issue though, maybe even BCM related if you were sparking the PCM, but time will tell.

at first I thought that was my car on the flat bed!!!

you have one hell of an ice looking car..... lol

should see the thing in real life. Nice. Real nice.

Hopefully they can figure it out

How's that a resolution, that is failure!!!

I wouldn't say failure. But definately not resolution until you find out what's wrong.

Your just too good lol..

Good luck with getting it fixed.

It was an ECM fuse that was blown, 50 bucks and she all mines.... cant wait till work is over..

I need to see which one that was cause i checked almost every fuse....

lol.

don't you feel like shiz that they fixed it in a day and you have been working on it for weeks with 19 pages to date?

that fuse prob blew when i sparked the pcm but who knows like i said the first day the pump was acting weird so i might've fixed something that might've gone out, either way i have a new pump and harness out of it all...

so if you had check for power at the pcm, you would have found this.

Or if you had gone over the fuses.

Sweet! $50 is cheap, they could have said it was something else and raked you through the coals,

glad its working!

i did check the fuses all that pertained to the fuel and ignition, i wasnt aware of the ecm or what it did...

just got back from picking it up and yes more issues. ABS light is on and the ebrake doesnt want to engage, as well as the steering is tight. I feel these 2 go hand in hand with a bad hook up on the tow.... gonna call them now to see whats up but other then that i need to solve the hid issue as the high beams work lows dont... but she starts and runs fine with a few more fixes and a tune i will have successfully completed my top swap.

my ebrake is messed up too. everything LOOKS normal (rotors, pads, cables) but they just will not hold the car on any incline. I have the cable adjusted as far as it can be adjusted.

only thing I can think of is that the inside of the rotor where the park brake sits, was turned.

that is my next project, I live in a city with lots of hills, and I'm sure my park pawl is loving me! I try to park where I do not need the park brake, or stress the pawl too much, but can't always make that happen.

yours may be due to the tow truck, not sure if it worked fine before they towed it, and now it doesn't then obviously they did something.

good luck!

yea it was great before no it wont engage, im taking to a shop to get lifted to see if anything is out of place or bent if so its on like donkey knog...

just wanted to say thank you for those who stuck through the end and provided there opinions and jaybur you helped a hellva alot

lol now finally this thread will die soon

Good to know you got her start up.

Sounds like a speed sensor issue in your front wheel hubs, make sure those connectors are checked out, if you're lucky someone just knocked it loose.

Bryant told me that it's fine to put all the weight of the car on the parking paw.

LOL@ Corey! You sure he said that? I seem to remember otherwise...

Congrats Alex. Try replacing the ebrake shoes. That'll be sure to tighten the ebrake nice and tight. This is something that me and Slick know very well.

i know how to fix it im just saying these two issues weren't occurring after my top swap she ran perfect... steve can vouch that the abs light went off when it was in the on position....

found this in WIKI

The parking pawl locks the transmission's output shaft to the transmission casing by engaging a pawl (a pin) that engages in a notched wheel on the shaft, stopping it (and thus the driven wheels) from turning.

Most manufacturers and mechanics do not recommend using the transmission's parking pawl as the sole means of securing a parked vehicle, instead recommending it should be engaged after first applying the vehicle's parking brake. Constant use of the parking pawl only, especially when parking on a steep incline, means that driveline components are kept constantly under stress, and can cause wear and eventual failure of the parking pawl or transmission linkage. The pawl might also fail or break if the vehicle is pushed with sufficient force, if the parking brake is not firmly engaged. Replacement can be an expensive operation since it generally requires removing the transmission from the car.

It is also not recommended to use the parking pawl to stop a vehicle in motion. The pawl mechanism is not strong enough to stop a vehicle in motion or may not engage at all. Under that much stress, the pawl may break off in the transmission, leading to costly repairs.

aw now we cant fairly race anymore ahahahaha

so is everything running good now?

other then that its great ill be in jersey pending the weather for my tune..

abs issue i think is fixed now, the right rear speed sensor wire was disconnected? i think the steering maybe do to bad tires. but its slowly coming around

didn't think there were sensors in the rear hubs...

yep. well, atleast in the 00 and up. All four hubs have sensors, all four brake systems trigger independantly to slow the car down. Both half-shafts create drag on each front wheel independantly. The beauty of TRAC, huh?

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS set your E-Brake when parking.... I know in Phoenix, if your car rolls out of park and causes damage and the e-brake is not set, you are ticketed for failure to control your vehicle.

I had the same ABS issue when i got my car a while ago btw.

glad to see its in working condition now man.

=)