I'm not planning on doing it anytime soon but I wanted to ask some questions on it, mainly to drummer and ordonez(sp?)

1. Obviously it's easier to do with the engine outside the car. How hard is it to get the engine out of the car? How long would it take?

2. How much is a good price for a top-end swap? That includes a boosted cam.

3. What's hard about doing it? Just lots of work or are there things that are reeeeal specific to be done?

4. How long would it take once the engine is out of the car? Hours? Days? A solid weekend?

5. Where's the best place to get the parts for a swap? Local junkyard? Ed Morad? How bout gaskets?

I think that's good for now. I'll have more later I'm sure.

1. Ask drummer. I did it with the engine in the car, so i cant help you with that

2. Top-swap from ed morad is like $750. Cam is around $300. Gaskets will cost you a few hundred, maybe $200?


3. It is a lot of work. You have to do the head gaskets, LIM gaskets, S/C gasket, TB gasket, harmonic balancer, etc.

4. I left it in there, and it took me around 4 days to do. Probably less if it is out of the car

5. Gaskets- ZZP. Hard Parts- Ed Morad

i think the zzp top swap is easier but alot more money ... i think D and Grand Pa (chico) have done that kit...

1) If you're doing a cam at the same time I would recommend you pull the motor. A cam install takes 30 minutes tops with the motor out. Plus I know torquing head bolts with the motor on a stand is much easier (especially the rear head). Removing the motor is a 3-6 hr job depending on your knowledge and mechanical ability. I started Friday at 3 pm and it was out by 7:30 or so... having someone who may have done it before to help is a big part of it. Mainly just making sure you've disconnected everything, undone all bolts, etc.

2) I paid $620 shipped for all the hard parts for my top swap. For the cam go XP ($300). For all gaskets, fluids, and misc trips to the parts store I would plan on another $300 or so

3) If you're fairly mechanical, nothing. It's just time consuming and making sure you do everything exactly right (correct torque specs, having all the right tools, etc)

4) Once the motor is out, I would leave a solid weekend. Mine took about 28 working hours spread over 4 days. If I wanted to, I could've had it done in a weekend, but I took plenty of meal breaks, sleep breaks etc to make sure I didnt go crazy.

5) Parts : Junkyard would be nice, but most of that stuff is very hard to find. Late model cars get picked over pretty fast at least around here. I would say Morad, although I did have some problems with some of the stuff he sent me (bad sensors, missing bolts & brackets), his prices/service/shipping is bar none.
Gaskets/Belts/Fluids/Misc : ZZP/GM dealer/parts store... most can be had from parts stores but I found there are some gaskets that nowhere but GM had

Hope that helps! Any more questions, feel free to PM me.

What gaskets can only be had at a dealership?

Cause my Lynch GM Superstore is a true $tealer$hip.

Quick Edit: Are there any guides for a top-swap? OR do I just have to have the parts and start pluckin parts and stickin ones that fit back in the empty spot?

Valve cover gaskets, downpipe gasket... both of which you can get from ZZP but why hassle with shipping?

how about a guide?

Uh...not sure... I think there might've been one on clubGP somewhere

with the more expensive kit it comes with a cd u can follow ... i dont think anything tells u how to do the cam and the cheaper kit you just have to know i guess or follow a gtp manual

there is a guide on Club GP. It really isnt that difficult. The cam might be, but everything pretty much fits like a puzzle

How do you do pulley swaps and stuff with the engine in the car ordonez?

Did you undo the mounts and raise/lower it in the bay?

What I'm thinking about doing is bribing my friend into giving me back my $550 I've lent him and doing a TES with the rest of my money.

And I jsut got off the phone with him. I don't think I'll ever see my money again...

I think I should just kill him and sell his organs. But he drinks so much...

Grr!

It is pretty easy. If you take the tire off of the passenger side, you can see the harmonic balacer right there. There is a special tool for the 3800 to remove it though.

You also have to add all of the S/C idler and tensioner pulleys to the CP bracket and the head. The S/C pulley is already attached to the snout.

You dont have to remove any of the mounts to do add any pulleys. But you will have to remove the Dogbones (upper mounts) in order to do the swap.

Checkout W-body store they have a complete top swap and all the gaskets available in a kit ,as far a a cam swap it is about an 8 out of 10 on difficulty with the engine still in the car and the head swap is also fairly hard ,you would need some experienced help so you do'nt f---k things up,a kit from ZZP is around $1400 and is easier to install whichever you decide you will probably need some help.Chico.(Pops)

Well, IF I do this, I'm doing it with a few things in mind.

1. I'm going to get my ricey Mazda running again and street legal because...

2. I AM going to take the engine out of the car and...

3. I'm going to take my time and spread it out over a week and take a few days off of work.

4. And unless it's something I ABSOLUTELY need help with like removing/replacing the engine, I'm doing it by myself.

So are there any special tools I would need? Like anythign outside a Craftsman 175 pc. socket set?

I want to do a top swap because I may want to drop a Whipple in later down the road.

I just want to get all the information I can. I'm not ready right now. Need to get a new cat-back so it doesn't look like crap, a GT rear bumper, and then I have to put my Mazda back together so I have a DD.

Best advice I can give you then is buy a GM service Manual this will be your bible as far as procedures and specialty tools .good luck.Chico(Pops)

Thanks Chico!

Actually, I just read through all the guide.

Doesn't look too bad to do in the car.

Just looks like a lot of preparation, patience, and above all, time.

I think I can handle it if I get aorund to doing it.

I dunno.

I like challenges. That's why I got a C in Foods in high school. NO challenge. Boiling an egg is FAR FAR FAR below worthy work.

Precalc, now THAT was both fun and challenging. Can't wait until normal Calc and stuff in college!

You can do it dude, if me and ordonez both did the top swap. I've also now done 2 cam installs and pulled the motor once... and I'm only 18, but I would definitely agree with chico, get some experienced help. Also just read up on it a ton, and make sure you know your engine extremely well.

If you're doing a cam at the same time you WILL need an impact gun, and a 1-1/8 impact socket for the cam bolt.

Well, I'll buy an air wrench. I'll try to get my dad to swing me some cash so I can get a good one for the shop cause our old one sucked.

I'd like to get experianced help but I have 2 options;

1. My friend who lies and is going to have his eyes plucked from his head so I can sell them and get my $550 back or,

2. My mechanic friends who I highly doubt would help me. We're more of "aquaintances." They are nice to me but they're still mechanics and they want their money.

Well. As much fun as I'm having right now dreaming about this, it's 3:42AM.

I think I should go to bed... night all and thx much guys!

Whoa, I was looking for gasket kits on ZZP and found this...

http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=313&catid=103

Is that everything, besides head gaskets, that I need for the top-end swap as far as gaskets go?

dunno about the gaskets... looks like mostly everything with a lot of extra stuff. may be cheaper getting what you'll actually use.

just find somebody who's even slightly mechanically inclined. don't necessarily need to have a lot of experience. two brains are better than one.

My finacee will be in the shop reading while I'm working for most of the time, hopefully.

And my buddy will probably want to help. Cmon, I'm putting a blower on my rental car. He'd have no choice.

Besides, if he helps me, he can call in the afvor when he fixes up his '71 and '73 Nova's

well that's a pretty good deal on the gaskets. too bad head gaskets are not included since that's another $70, i'd say go for it... it even includes injector orings and everything

Am I going to be reusing my whole valvetrain? I know I keep the rockers/pushrods/lifters but what about the valves/retainers/springs?

And what other gaskets am I going to need for a cam install as well?

*sigh* I wish I just had one big checklist with EVERYTHING on it.

allow me get that checklist for ya... you want cam install stuff and top swap stuff? i already have a mostly complete list and i can tell you everything you need

Parts for the top swap:

M90 Supercharger
Boost bypass valve
L67 smooth idler pulley
L67 grooved idler pulley (on coil pack)
L67 belt tensioner
L67 throttle body
33# injectors
L67 crank pulley
L67 MAP sensor
L67 heads
L67 LIM
L67 Valve Covers
L67 fuel rail
Head Bolts
Rocker Bolts
S/C Bolts
LIM Bolts
L36 to L67 wiring harness adapter kit
Vac lines (I used 7/64" rubber hose)
Coil pack bracket from a 97-98 GT/GTP
S/C belt
2 changes worth of oil/oil filters
2 jugs of coolant (I think they are a gallon usually)

Gaskets:

Head Gaskets
S/C gasket
TB gasket
LIM gasket
LIM o-rings
Valve Cover gaskets
Fuel rail o-rings
Gray RTV gasket maker

If doing cam at the same time you will need:
*Depending on the cam, you may need 105# valve springs and mod’d retainers*

New Timing chain
Timing chain dampener
Front cover gasket
Engine assembly lube
Camshaft

Tools required for cam/valvespring install:

Impact gun and air compressor
Torque wrench
1-1/8 impact socket for cam bolt
Crank pulley puller (requires special bolts)
Valve spring compressor
Air adapter (keeps the valves from dropping when the spring is removed)


Hope that helps... Herc or Austin, possible FAQ update for the top swap section since its more complete?

dont go with that gasket kit. there is too much stuff you dont need.

I know I spent almost, or maybe even as much as that kit costs, by the time I was said and done with everything. Especially if you're doing a cam install on top of it all... plus it comes with a bunch of o-rings and things that all probably stand could be replaced. The oil pan gasket set alone is $40, if he's pulling the motor there is no reason not to change it out, prevent or fix possible leaks. It looks like a pretty good deal to me, really. Sure there is stuff you don't need, but I'd rather be safe than sorry, and replace it if it's already all apart

Supercharger gasket $6.99
Water pump gasket $4.99
Oil pan gasket set $29.99
Oil filter extension gasket $2.99
Dip stick tube O-ring
Intake manifold O-rings $4.99
Front cover gasket $6.99
Rear cover gasket $4.99
Oil plug washer $2.99
Rear main seal $4.99
Front main seal $4.99
Cam position sensor O-ring
6 injector Orings $5.99
Lower intake manifold gasket $44.99
Throttle body gasket $8.99
Valve cover gaskets $27.99
Upper coolant elbow $8.99
Lower coolant elbow $6.99
Thermostat O-ring $3.49
Exhaust manifold gaskets $15.99

Total -$210 worth of stuff

For just the top swap... no
For cam install/pulling the motor/and top swap... h-ll ya

I'm debating on whether I'm going to pull the motor or not.

I know it will be easy as pie with the motor out but I'm worried about messing with the tranny. I have no idea what to do as far as unmounting the tranny from the engine. It's just another thing I don't know about and would have to read I guess. Also, I don't have a proper engine stand either.

I'm going to e-mail zzp as well and see if they would throw together a top-swap + cam swap gasket kit. Add in the other cam stuff like chain and dampener...

I should start adding all this up...

The back head will be easier to get to once you rock the motor forward (it easily rocks all the way forward).

See if Ed can throw a GT bumper into the package

i agree with drummer. if you are doing the cam/puling the motor, get the whole kit and add the head gaskets to it

To dismount the engine and tranny... get under the car,

1. take off the flywheel cover (plastic piece)
2. using a long, beefy screwdriver, slowly turn over the motor by wedging the screwdriver in the slots on the flywheel
3. there are 3 bolts holding the flywheel together with the torque converter, undo them all
4. put the screwdriver in between the flywheel and TC and you can separate them (the TC will move back about 1 inch)
5. once everything else is disconnected and the motor is ready to pull, there are 5 bolts holding the engine and trans together. undo em, the last one is the hardest because you have to go from the passenger side wheel well to get to it

That's where you needed like a 24" extension right?

How about the hood? Is that easy to take off as well or even necessary?

And would chains and a forklift suffice in lifting the engine out?

Edit: What about tranny fluid? Will I need to drain it? How does it get to the toque converter? Is that what line pressure refers to?

Yep, you need a 24" extension to get to that last bolt. As far as removing the motor... I suppose a forklift would work, I dont see why not.

You will have to remove the hood. Otherwise you will not have the clearance to remove the motor. Unbolt the 4 bolts from the hinges to the hood. The hinges are welded to the fenders so they stay on the car.

No need to drain the tranny fluid. Not sure on how it gets to the TC, but you won't have to worry about it

Hope this all helps. I'm more than happy to answer your questions (at least to the best of my ability!) so keep em coming!

Ed says he wants $75- for the hard parts in his e-mail. I'm going to call him when I get a chance.

I'm supposed to us my L36 pushrods/lifters/rockers/springs/retainers/valves right? Oh, springs, that's another thing I'll have to add to the cam list...

Edit: Actually, I'm going to go with a VS cam instead of an XP cam. I want to be able to keep the emmissions station happy without a powertuner.

Ed doesn't have a MAF for me so I assume I'll need one of those too?

How about the wiring harness? Do I need an adapter or can I just splice some wires? I'm pretty good with that as long as it's not like 130 wires.

I imagine the heads he sends you will have the springs and retainers, but no rockers. That's how mine were. You'll need to reuse your pushrods, lifters, and rockers.

If you're gonna do a cam, I would really recommend the XP. I don't know about what you mean about keeping emissions happy... but the XP isn't gonna affect that. If you do a cam now, you're never gonna want to do it again, so make sure you pick carefully. XP is hands down the best cam for stock heads, and you'll see gains from it that the VS cam will not give you.

If you're concerned about tuning, you can have ZZP tune your PCM for the XP/VS cam and top swap, and if you don't care about it being perfect just reset your fuel trims, drive nice for 50 or so miles mixed city/highway and you'll be good to go.

You'll only need a new MAF if the GTP throttle body he sends you is for a 99+ car. If he sends you a 97-98 TB (which you can probably request that he does) you can reuse your current MAF.

Here's the kit for the wiring harness you'll need:

http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=173&catid=108

Hope this helps

I want the VS cam because I may not end up getting a Pwrtuner and I don't want to be throwing codes. Also, with the XP, I'd need 105# springs and mod'd retainers and thats another $280.

I'm not looking for tons of performance. Just the bragging rights of saying "yeah, I put a blower on my SE..." along with the wicked sounding idle and supercharger whine.

But anyway, talked to Ed today. $800 for the top swap, shipped right to my dad's shop where I'm going to keep the car.

I'm going to get to work on getting the gaskets, cam and fixin's, wiring harness adapter, and PCM. This weekend I think I'll go on ZZP and get all that stuff set up.

What I'm looking at is ~$580 for the VS cam, timing chain & dampener, engine rebuild gaskets, head gaskets, wiring harness adapter, add another $100 for the ZZP PCM and it's like $700 for everything else.

So I'm looking at $1500 for the swap. Little more than expected but I'm ok with it.

Gotta get my mufflers back on sadly Have to take my car in for emmissions cause my plates expire next month. Don't think they will like it if I roll in there with nothing but a HF cat and a resonator for an exhaust...

One thing I was thinking about doing was parting my blower and LIM. Anybody have info on doing that yourself or is that a send it to zzp thing?

M90 isn't going to whine much idling. Can barely hear them (I'm tellin ya... save for the novi kit for a mean idle ).

Not sure if anyone here ports their own stuff, but theres a lot on c-gp that do.

Fill the silencer slots in the M90 and it'll whine at idle. :p

port your own supercharger. have at it with a dremel and a file

with the cam and everything else I'd say $1500 is more than reasonable. between all the performance mods I've done to my car in the last 4 months it's been in between $1500-2000

Well I didn't mean S/C whine at idle.

I want a wicked idle and a S/C whine when I get on it.

But Rook!

Where are these silencer slots on said M90? What do I fill them with? Is it a bad idea? Will it hurt anything? Will it be too loud (is it even possible to be too loud)?

I thought about not doing a cam and getting rockers because it'd be cheaper. But I need a boosted cam don't I? Else I'm going to be blowing my boosty out the exhaust, right?

Haha, wow .. How do you know that?

If you plan doing all this work, you need to fine someone with a Tuner then. You're doing a lot to your engine. Changing the brain and all.

For a wicked idle get the XP cam... the VS isn't mean enough! As long as you have an intake setup the S/C will whine when you romp on it

Some people have done it with JB weld, i wouldn't waste your time though

Cost - rockers + install kit = $440, cam + install kit = $375

Cam > Rockers

Right. DO NOT use anything but a boosted cam for top swap setups

Guys on clubgp with movie clips. One in particular has a how-to thread where he drove screws in for support and use jbweld or something similar. I kinda wish I'd had the guts to do it while mine was off.

If you've got the time to do it, it makes your M90 more efficient at making boost by eliminating turbulence. Eaton designed the slots to keep M90s in the suburbs happy with neighbors. One of the M90 Gen V improvements is smaller silencer slots.

Here's a little FYI so dyno testing the m-90 SS kit puts down 253whp and 300wtq with a 4" pulley on a basically stock L-36 for around $1400 ,now take a look at Intenses performance package level 2 for $889 puts down 243whp and 293wtq level 3 for $1789 puts down258whp and 305wtq ,this is just to put the cost into prospective .Chico.(Pops)

wow those kits are ridiculously overpriced...

that's like $300 for 5hp abd 5ft/lps...

Well Ed's gonna ship the stuff on Monday for me. He was towing I think he said 3 cars to Pinks: All Out when I talked to him.

Filling those silencer slots sounds like fun! I'm going to have the hard parts sittings around for a little while so I wanna try and do all the little DIY things to make the stuff more efficient.

nice, you're on the way man... still going VS cam or are you doing rockers?

Well actually, my dad gave me a nice bit of a raise.

Was making $417 a week and now I've got 2 checks with $550 sitting in my car right now.

I'm going to price out the XP build with springs and mod'd retainers.

Are springs hard to do? Or do you just have to press down on them and turn the retainer or something?

Oh and another thing. That ZZP engine gasket kit. That will have everything but head gaskets but there's a problem; do I get the L36 or the L67 set? Obviously I need the L67 for the LIM and S/C but are there other gaskets that won't match up? What gaskets from an L67 won't work for a top-swapped L36?

Get and $10 spring compressor. You just slip it over the spring and tighten down, then use a magnet to remove the two valve locks. Then the spring and retainer come off together. Do the opposite to install. Not a big deal, especially with the heads off. Otherwise you'll need a method to prevent the valve from plunging into the cylinder.

Be sure to get new valve seals while you're at it.

What are valve seals and where do they go?

XP! XP! XP!

If you're going to all this time and trouble, and spending all the money, and you've already got a DD, do it right. With an XP cam and at least a downpipe I would expect that you could run a 3.5" or 3.6" pulley with no knock. Get headers and make that a 3.4"

They're under the springs and go around the valve stems. They prevent oil on the upper part of your head from leaking into the combustion chamber. Believe me, you'll want to replace them, especially if you compare old to new.

Well I've got a 2.5" DP w/ cat so I'm going to stick with that and the stock 3.8" pulley.

So does a cam reduce KR? If so, does it help a lot or a little?

I'm going to go price stuff out on zzp right now and see what I'm looking at for everything but hard parts.

And are 105# springs ok with the stock timing chain set-up?

How does this look? That should be every single thing I need except the hard parts from Ed.



I know I will also need oil/filters along with coolant, S/C belt, and teflon tape.

However, will I also need S/C bolts or should Ed send those with it? How about the MAP sensor and Boost Bypass valve?

Oh and BTW...

I'm painting the blower green...

everything looks good on your order list. Except for if I were you I would get the #4 package for the cam install kit, both the cam and crank bolt are TTY and ideally should be replaced.

Ed sent me all the bolts necessary, along with the BBV and MAP sensor. I'm sure he'll get everything on there for ya.

Now to answer these questions...
1)You really should have at least a 3" D/P as the 2.5" will probably be a restriction with your engine flowing so much more air. I would try to sell that and pick up a 3" D/P

2)Cams are a huge help in reducing KR. Blower cams tend to have a pretty high exhaust duration and lift, which lets all that superheated air out of the combustion chamber better. Superhot exhaust = hotspots in the CC = predetonation (KR)

3)105# springs will work just fine with a stock timing chain and dampener

I changed to to the #4 kit and am going to e-mail zzp about the exact specifications for the PCM because their ZZP 1.0 options won't let me pick settings for a top-swap AND XP cam.

I'd like to fill the silencer slots but I REALLY don't want to have them welded. Is JB weld some kind of paste or seomthing that I can just put in there?

And I can paint the blower, right? With some high-temp green ceramic?

Yes, get the #4 kit. That's what I got. It also comes with a new dampener, you'll need it. Otherwise, at least get the dampener separate. Mine had a nice groove in the stock one on the 103k mile engine, and the XP cam will wear it even faster.

Yeah... I'm sure if you email em they can take care of you on the XP/top swap settings

My tune was way off, but that's cause they only programmed for the top swap and not for the cam I put in. So you will want to make sure and do that

I recommend having the blower housing powdercoated. The blower gets very hot, so I'm not sure how painting will work, but in any case, powdercoating will look much better and since it's baked on it's far more durable

If the dampener wears out is it a real PITA to change on a regular basis?

Although, because it's behinf the front cover, I'm going to assume so...

40k miles isn't exactly regular basis. But, it requires your timing cover to be removed.

Changing the dampener every 40k wouldn't be too bad.

Anyway, off-topic, I'm havin some computer issues. Keeps locking up for no apparent reason. Temperatures are fine, video card running around 50*C during heavy gaming.

I think I may just need a can of air and blast out the case, it's getting kinda nasty in there lol!

Random...

My uncle who knows quite a bit about engines will look into finding somebody to lend me a stand so I'm looking forward to that.

But he also thought it would be a good idea for me to get new pistons and/or rods if I've got the motor pulled.

That'd be $40 for the oil pan gasket + whatever new pistons and rods go for.

What do you guys think? If they are in good condition I'm just going to leave them. If they aren't looking good, what should I do?

I wouldn't worry about it, these engines are built to last, the tranny is the weak link... mine has 151k on the bottom end and going strong. How many miles are on your motor?

Plus if you're gonna do that, it would require machine shop work on the cylinder walls (honing at the bare minimum, boring if there are gouges in the cylinder walls)

I was going to do piston rings and rod bearings when I had the motor out, but I took my heads off and the cylinder walls were PERFECT. You'll just have to see what they look like once you get the heads off.

I was going to do the same thing, if they were good, just leave it.

I'm going onto zzp and putting my order in for my stuff.

Wish me luck!


Edit: Hey, you guys think I should drop an extra $140 and get a double roller timing set? I don't need a dampener or new timing chain so that saves me just under $40 so it'd be about a $100 upgrade. What do you guys think?

You don't need a new dampener or chain, but now you've got timing cover clearance issues. You might or might not need a inside of the timing cover machined so it doesn't rub. Secondly, you'll have to disable the balance shaft. This means reduced engine life and increase vibration.

i would say don't get the double roller. i would only recommend it for use with 130# springs but with 105#'s and the XP you'll be fine with a stock replacement chain

Well after all was said and done...

About $1100 including the PCM and shiping, may be a little more because the cam tables are an extra $30.

Bought an upper coolant elbow just in case, along with that magnetic pick-up tool. I dropped an upper engine mount bolt between my radiator and AC heatsink and it was the biggest PITA EVER!!!

Also bought the pulley puller off ZZP too. Just so I could get everything possible from ZZP and have almost everything once everything arrives.

I'll just need fluids, besides S/C oil, a S/C belt, some JB weld, and I think I'll be good...

Zoomer loves you

If you do decide to get new rods get the rods for an L32. Much better then the stockers in the L36 and L67.

No he doesn't, which is one of the reasons I have issues with them.

well you sure ordered alot of stuff from them

Looking at getting to work next week. Wish me luck!

Sometimes we learn from the mistakes we've made... besides, only they sell the XP cam and fixed Pacesetters at the time. Right now, I think I'll go with Mike for the rest of my junk.

Rook is right they do'nt seem to give two sh-ts what you've spent just another sucker.Chico(Pops)

well... I've had nothing but great customer service, helpful staff, lightning fast shipping, and excellent product so I will most certainly continue to buy from them. I'm not trying to convince you guys to like ZZP, go ahead, buy wherever you like.

After all the stuff I went through during the turbo kit order and all the changes, they were always responding next day with the answers to all my questions.

I haven't heard anything bad about ZZP yet. Maybe somebody has but I haven't. But I've heard some stuff about other places as well.

ZZP shipped my stuff yesterday and theh UPS guy is already out for delivery today...

Lightning fast is right.

But I don't know if I can wait around for the package or not. I need to go back to work.

I think I'll call my friend and have him stay at my house for a while til it comes.

Nice! It's coming together very quickly!

I'm looking at pulling stuff off tomorrow, possibly draining fluids and a little disconnecting tonight.

I'll need to print up all the guides and suggestions from everything and I'll be set.

Hey drummer, my ZZP PCM says GT PCM top swap on it and I made a comment when I ordered it that I also needed the XP cam tables. If I don't have those tables, will I know immediately? Or am I just going to notice lots of lost power or something?

It'll just be running rich as heck if you're not tuned for the cam. You won't be seeing the full potential of your setup without a properly tuned PCM.

Before I got my car tuned I was running 980+ O2's. Normal is 900-940 from what I understand.

Alrighty, here's today's work update!

I only got about 3 hours of work in today but here's what I got accomplished,

All mating surfaces (- heads) cleaned with scouring pads
Blower outlet slighty ported, mostly smoothed out
Blower rotors and case cleaned of EGR crap (yuk!)
S/C oil emptied (smells like butt) and replaced with new
Throttle body bolted up to S/C w/ new rubber coolant resisting gasket
Old springs and valve seals removed
Valves wire brushed clean
Valves replaced with new valve seals

Removing the springs was easy, I just used a 5/8 socket on the retainer, put a rag onto the socket and just stood on it and bounced a few times until the locks fell off. I'm sure it's not the *proper* way to do it but it worked.

Now I have to figure out how to get the ******* back on. Are spring compressors a parts store rental item?

After that I think I can start pullin crap. I'm getting up around 7:30 tomorrow and working all day and doing as much as humanly possible.

I think I'm going to put my car up on 4 ramps. I'll use a jack to lift the car and just slide the ramps under the tires. I'll face the ramps like this

(o--car--o}
I""\......./""I

No rolling. No jackstands. Almost like a lift...only not 4 feet in the air...

Once I need to do the cam and balancer, I may have to drop the car and use a jackstand but we'll see.

Wish me luck guys?

Yah, I would do more porting while stuff is apart. But good luck, hope you got lots of pics because .

So are you not pulling the motor after all? If you're dropping the cradle for your cam install you will have to have it up on jackstands. Because you will have to take off the pass. tire, disconnect the strut assy, and loosen the two driver's side cradle bolts, and with a jack in place under the pass. side cradle, completely remove those two cradle bolts. Then slowly let your jack down to lower the engine cradle exposing the timing cover. Be very careful though, you don't want to lower it too far because your steering linkage can pop loose.



EDIT- found this pic for you and thought you might be interested to see it. The bottom gear is what's connected to the crankshaft, and the top is the cam gear. First remove the timing chain dampener, then to remove the cam gear, you will need the 1-1/8 impact socket. Once the bolt is out, you can slowly remove the cam gear and the timing chain. After that, you'll halfta remove the 'thrust plate' that I mentioned earlier. Then, thread the cam bolt back into the end of the cam and use that to slowly pull the cam out.

Here are some pics from when I tore down an engine... Might give you some insight on how things go.

Engine Tear Down

Oh yeah, be careful when taking the cam out... You don't want to dislodge a bearing.

man great pix, im glad u know what you're doing, i would prolly be clueless on what i was taking apart, herc or somebody should save the post or put it in the FAQ's for how to take apart the engine. That is a lot of shots

nice, that's not your motor is it? Stage 3 blower cam? very nice pics indeed

Naw... That was another guy's engine here in town. He ended up demodding back to stock because he had spent too much money fixing all the s... he kept breaking.

A real shame too... His car was running super low 12's and could've run 11's with a proper tune when he decided to back out of the racing scene.

drummerboy, i think i popped my steering linkage loose because I took all 4 bolts out and just dropped the whole craddle.

What now?

I put the answer in your other thread...

Wow. Everything looked all shiney and clean Slick. I left all the oil on everything but gasket surfaces. Didn't want any lubrication issues.

Anyway, here's an update!

Driving around today, I found a little spot to drop the loud pedal on. I was rolling in first so I only floored it until it shifted.

Scan gauge reported 265hp at the top of 1st gear. Now, I think my scan gauge may be off because I only had 210hp before the swap and with all the mods, I should have had more than that I think.

Tomorrow I'm going to try and go to the track. I'll do a good amount of scanning and *hopefully* get a few good times too

Where do you guys have your MAP sensor? I left it on its bracket and kinda wedged it around the fuel rail.

what track do you go to? GLD Im guessing. if so Ill be up there on friday. this kid at work invited me to go with him and his whole grand am club. so im going up there with a buddy of mine from the illinois grand prix club. im throwing my zzp powerlog and 3.2 s/c pulley on tonight. if you do go to GLD you should come out friday. would be nice to meet someone from this forum.

I'll see about friday. And yes, Great Lakes Dragaway is the place. Soundls like a lot more fuin to be out there with fellow Pontiacs instead of 2 Hondas.

I'll see if anybody else can make it Friday too. Is it open race night? The website says Diesel drag night.

How are your fuel trims looking? Seeing any KR?

Also how much timing is your car commanding?

I haven't checked the timing advance yet, just been scanning for KR.

The most I've seen was like 0.6* at WOT around 4.5k rpms.

Not sure about the fuel trims either. Been scanning my O2 sensor too. I'm' not sure how to read it but I've seen it reach 950 and goes as low as like 70.

I'll scan those a couple times a the track when I go.

It'd be nice if I could get a tuner but I don't have a laptop so that's extra dough on top of an already expensive tuner.

But yeah, I found out today that I can go from 60mph to 80mph faster than I can comfortably brake from 80mph to 60mph.

Edit: I also want to add that when I idle for a minute, the ehaust starts to get really bad smelling. Tell-tale rotten egg smell. Do you think I killed my hf cat or I'm just running too rich?

You need to be scanning your LTFTs. They are a much better indication of whether you are running rich or lean overall. Too lean = BOOM. The LTFT is long term fuel trim, and it's a calculated average of how much fuel the PCM is adding or taking away over time. Ideally you want them to be as close to zero as possible at WOT.

The stock O2 sensor is narrowband and isn't very accurate. However it can give you an idea of where you're at. You want your O2's to lock in between 920-940 at when in Power Enrichment (WOT). The rest of the time, they will be jumping around.

I don't know if the scan gauges have LTFT readings...

I'll look again tomorrow after I get the car back. I'm dropping it off at the mechanic while I'm at work so he can change the oil and give the car a thourough check-up for leaks.

Oh, and I might be dropping the Y pipe in the exhaust and going back to a single muffler.

Less issues of lop-sidedness and brings back the sleeper look.

yes friday they have fun-racing which is pretty much test and tune. i want to throw on my 3.2 pulley but i just ran into some issues and need to save some money. i gotta change out my whole snout because the main bearing is really bad. it sounds like my belts are slipping but when i take of the blower belt it sounds normal. i mean i can do it myself but as far as buying the S/C oil and Exhaust gaskets for the zzp powerlog im throwing on as well. not to mention i have to buy some gas for my welder to fix my exhaust leak and weld in my 3" DP.

It should measure LTFT... it's a pretty vital engine parameter to monitor as it's how your PCM decides what % of fuel to add or remove at each kPa rating (measure of load on engine)

I suggest getting your car tuned for daily driving first. Get your STFT and LTFT dialed in before you start your WOT runs. It's like anything else, you need to break them in first, even though your engine has been broken in, just not with all the newer parts.

You don't need to break in the motor with a top swap... just when you rebuild a motor.

However it is a good idea to let the fuel trims settle and tune first idle, then light throttle fueling, and finally WOT fueling.

zerg, check out an old post of mine from almost a month ago about fuel trims and tuning. it'll give you an idea of what to look for ish.