Im not trying to fight with you, just offer a different perspective, and I think you should try to keep the comparisons equal.

styling: I think they did what they could with the time they had. It looks like a cavalier because they had to use the aerodynamic certification for the GP so they couldnt change much if anything. Hell if they couldnt even put hood scoops on it, they sure couldnt do much if anything else. Personally I think they should have taken the time and waited for a mid 2004 or 2005 intro and done everything they wanted to do.

Trunk: could you really fit clothes and 2 golf bags in the TA? Not without folding down the seats. and if you are going to do that, just toss a set of clubs or your clothes in the back seat of the GTO. Sure the vette has more trunk room but it doesnt have 4 seats. Same difference either way.
The trunk is small because of where they had to relocate the gas tank for US crash compliance. Its not like they did it on purpose. Honestly though I think they really need to do something about that. The lack of trunkspace is a big negative IMO. As is the lack of a sunroof. How the hell do you design a car for AUSTRALIA where its sunny and warm everywhere and NOT give it a sunroof.

1/4 Mile time: was that 13.3 stick or auto for the TA? Ive seen 13.4 at 108mph as the best 6 speed time for the GTO in more than 1 magazine. the 13.8 is usually for the Auto.

As far as skidpad, I think the tires they use on the GTO are a lot more "all season" than the TA, and they are narrower. Plus the GTO is prob tuned more for ride than the old Fbody was.

One thing I realize as I get older, when you are in your 20s or younger, .1 second in the 1/4 mile and .1G on the skidpad mean Everything. you will spend 1,500 bucks just to drop your 1/4 time by .2 seconds. You drive around looking for someone to race, someone to embarrass. Is that mustang faster than me, lets find out punk.
Thats why some people pay $900 for the total BMR suspension kit instead of $150 for the GMPP.

WHen you are 30+ and 40+, and you have a family etc, you really dont give a rats ass if the car runs 13.5 or 13.0, as long as its moderately comfortable, doesnt beat you up and is FUN to drive and you can take a kid or two somewhere in a pinch.

I think the GTO was/is intended for that 2nd crowd.

This is more of what the GTO should have come out looking like.

http://www.fast-autos.net/pontiac/pontiacgtoac.html

Its all done with GMPP parts for cryin out loud.

I am 34 - I would take a TA over a GTO right now. The GTO is an engineering blunder if you ask me.... it has even been said in more than one post; they had very little time to get it out hum what does that mean for the car.... I have taken a good look at the GTO.. does not impress me much at all.

I am more interested in what they have coming out after the short lived GTO is gone.

My GP is a way better buy.

I would agree with that at least; the GP is a better buy for the money. But, what domestic car ISN'T released ASAP, while the clock is ticking, which usually comromises certain aspects of the car. I got news for ya; Detroit has been known for doing that for years! I don't even think it's an arguable point, since anything else is the same way. It's not like the T/A spent years and years on the drawing board and in the wind tunnel, not to be released until it was absolutely perfect. They were worse back then at it than they are now. Why do you think almost all first year production models usually have a nice long list of problems associated with them? GM, as well as others, have actually figured out that it is cheaper (for them) to get something out on the market ASAP with KNOWN problems, and take care or recall them later, than to delay production and get them better before the release. All in all, if we're talking about engineering blunders and quality, an F-Body is hardly a good example of how things should be!

Amen Bro Amen. I can now go to sleep!

I agree, it is cheaper for them to do that. and maybe easier. BUT what they havent figured out even yet is that it builds a bad reputation and ill will between the company/product and the buying public. Its a LOT harder to overcome bad perceptions than tarnish a good one. What they are doing is shooting themselves in the foot and destroying their ability to regain marketshare. IMO honda, toyota and BMW arent what they used to be (more recalls more problems etc) but you still see people paying $1000s over sticker to get one.

I don't see anyone paying anything over sticker for any of the cars you've listed? It just doesnt happen especially on a mass produced scale. Now if it where that new Bentley or something rare yeah i can see that but i dont see someone going out and wanting a honda pilot so bad that they pay 3 thousand more than what it is worth just to get it. It doesnt happen.

It happened when they first came out in 03 and at my local dealer demand was so great for 04 pilots, they were giving 500 off and adding 2000 in "accessories" no deals. The waiting list was 2 months long.

Either way you wont see 5,000 incentive bonus cash on toyota or honda or bmw.

Not to mention when the S2000 came out; the MSRP was in the high twenty's, and the people were paying in the mid thirtys for them, all because of dealer markup. Although, the same has happened with domestic cars as well, not just the foreign cars.

Rather than a premium, what I should have said was toyota, honda and bmw dont have to bribe people to buy their cars with huge incentives because of public perception of their vehicles.


Look what oil prices and public perception have done to the prius. Its selling for $5,000 over sticker in Baltimore and I saw 2 articles stating they were getting $10,000 over sticker in California.

Granted honda/toyota etc are good cars but IMO they arent as good as people THINK they are. Just like American cars arent NOT poorly designed or "cheap" or "unreliable" as the majority of americans THINK they are.

GM still needs to do something about their interiors. The 04 GP seems a quantum leap over anything previous but yet GM still shoots itself in the foot. Look at the Equinox, it gets rave reviews for design, size, space efficiency etc but when you get to the interior, it sucks. Its cheap and flimsy plasticky. It ruins the overall impression of the rest of the truck to the point that I wouldnt buy it. And I dont feel too good about driving something with a V6 made in China, no matter how old/good the design. How they can put the 250hp honda V6 in the VUE and not the equinox is beyond common sense to me. Its things like that, that make unfavorable impressions on people.

GM needs to take some of that discount money and just lower the price of the car period and not move, OR put it into better materials in the interiors or wherever they are lacking. They have to get out of the "we have to price it $10,000 more than what it should sell for because we will have to discount it 5-7,000 dollars to get people to buy it" mentality.
When you make a quality product, people will buy it.

Maybe thats why I like the GTO so much, I can forgive the vanilla styling because of the drivetrain and the interior. even if it does have a crappy trunk. Incidently the local dealer was getting $5,000 over sticker on the GTOs. Now I see he has 3 and they are advertized for $29,990 Im sure all the talk about a Judge version and a 400 hp LS2 is now hurting sales of the 04 big time. Id wait too.

Mitsubishi is the world worst at giving incentives to buy their new cars. When I had my Montero Sport, I had a horrible time trying to get rid of it. Nobody wanted it when they can go to the dealer and get a brand new one for zero down, zero interest and zero payments for the first 12 months.
The Honda dealer where I found my GTP told me that people ask him all the time for incentives for Honda's. He said he told them Honda doesn't need to bribe anyone to buy their cars, they sell on their own.

yeah Mitsu is getting creamed on that 0/0/0 stuff. They discounted the cars, then gave them away to anyone for nothing down, nothing to pay for a year. So any kid out of highschool with a job could drive a new car for what seemed like Free. great, sales boomed.

I think a lot of people went for that BUT when the the payment book came in the mail after that year, they just turned the car over to the bank. So mitsu has a gazillion of its cars that were already discounted, then beat for a year without a penny ever having been paid on it. So they are worth almost nothing, they had nothing paid on them and now they cant sell them.

Even if you DID keep the car, you would be a year+ behind in equity and almost never owe less than it was worth until maybe the last year or 2 of the loan since the car depreciated like a rock but you never paid a penny on it to reduce the loan ammount. Its a great in the short term, until you get that payment book. People today want something new every 2 years if they can wait that long. (me included). Keeping that car 6 years to pay off the 5 yr loan is almost a death sentence. LOL

Wonder how many millions $$$ in severance pay the rocket scientist got for coming up with that scheme.

From todays carconnection.com

GTO Going, Going, but Not Gone

General Motors has no intention of abandoning its reborn GTO badge, despite a slow start-up for the Australian-made muscle car. The GTO "is a permanent addition to thePontiac stable," GM's Bob Lutz, stressed during an interview with TheCarConnection.com. "Maybe in retrospect, we should have done a more retro (looking) car," the GM vice chairman added, but he forcefully emphasized that "the car is not a flop." If anything, Pontiac officials insist that the "Goat" is gaining momentum, especially in the critical California market. While dealers in import-oriented Los Angeles account for only 1.4 percent of total Pontiac sales nationwide, they generated 4.6 percent of the overall GTO volume through mid-July, according to company data. While Lutz declined to discuss future product plans, industry sources report that the next generation of Pontiac's muscle car will be much more aggressively styled than the current, jellybean-shaped two-door. GM has good reason to hang onto the GTO. Since it's adding incremental volume to a product already on sale in Australia, "It's making a lot of money," despite a slow start in the U.S., said Lutz. -Paul A. Eisenstein

And now on to arueing wiht a door knob......Of course the S2000 doesnt have rebates and sold for thousands more. Think Corvette. Think Cobra. Thing Possible the new GT. Anything 'new' will catch a premium. But on a mass scale my honda dealership that also sells Audi, BMW, mercedes(of which seems to have a lotta AMG's ) VW honda nissan. I looked at several of these cars. Not the S2000 because they didnt have one. But you cannot compare the Grand prix to the S2000 on terms of sales and the 'gotta have it' factor.

I guess is what im trying to say is that some of the arguments on the board could end up looking like this.

" Rodney Carrington almost took the Miss America Contest this year but instead one out to a Model?'

"Hottie of the year almost went to MIMI from the Drew Carey show but instead Paris Hilton got it"

Everyone compares cars that are not even to the same class. If you are going to talk about over priced cars with no rebates do it but dont compare it to the car of the masses because cars of the masses do not sell at a "premium" like that listed for the S2000. There are not nearly as many S2000 on the road as there are GTPs only not including the rest of the grand prix family.

Hopefully I wasnt just off the wall on this I myself included sometimes this board just baffles me.

Oh one more thing. WE DONT BUY CARS AS INVESTMENTS!!!!! WHO CARES THAT IT LOSES VALUE!!!! IT ALWAYS WILL!!!!!

PS i had the caps locks on purpose!!!!!