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#151942 - 07/06/04 04:33 PM making the right choice
fpo701 Offline
Junior Member
Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 25
Loc: Akron, OH
I think it is about time to get off the wallet. I've been looking at getting an '05 GP. Was around a year ago, but decided to wait a year to see if some desired changes were made. I'm glad I did. DVD navigation and Automatic CLimate control are on the ballot for 2005. Now for the tough choices. Right now, I have a '00 GTP.

I've narrowed my choices to a GT2, GTP, or WS6. I'm really comparing price and features. I like the 17" wheels and SuperCharger. But, I also would like to have the StabiliTrak II. Can you guys help me weigh the merrits of price and features?
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#151943 - 07/06/04 04:47 PM Re: making the right choice
AustinGTP Offline
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Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 8078
Loc: Austin, TX
GTO?
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Bobby

Died 5/1/08, resurrected 5/15/08
ASCD SD hood, 17" Bullitts, Overkill PCM, 3.4" Pulley, NGK TR55IX, K&N 9" cone filter, JimmyC D/P, U-bend removed, Flowmaster 40 series, Hooker big bore tips with resonators, S/B brake lines, drilled/slot rotors, GMPP handling kit, KYB struts, F&R strut supports, HID's, LED's, 2.5" Air Dam, red GTP overlays on custom badges, white rear insert.
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#151944 - 07/06/04 04:54 PM Re: making the right choice
zachd Offline
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Registered: 04/15/04
Posts: 1316
Loc: Evansville, IN
WS6 is a Comp G............
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#151945 - 07/06/04 05:48 PM Re: making the right choice
Jizz Offline
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Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 766
Loc: Central Maryland
Well....

I have a WS6 GP (Yes it is a GTP CompG) where I live we get some rain and a bit of snow in the winter so a GTO is not an option for me. I need to be able to get to work in a bit of snow.

As for the WS6 I would not trade it for anything right now. It is pretty fast, handles great (as good as a GTO) and has all the features I need.

Make sure you sit in one first though -- I am 5'7" and the head room is good for me but someone 6'+ may get the sky-is-falling syndrome smile

For me dual-climate is not a concern...my wife and I are almost always on the same page as far as seat and climate adjustments.

The enhancements of the Comp G are well worth the $$ to me... The stabilitrak works great and the upgraded magnasteer is much better than the other ones. And do not get me started on the TapShift® --- I LOVE IT!!! and HUD is something I have grown very attached to also. I had it in my Vette and will get it in any car that it is availible that I am buying.

Hope the info helps
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#151946 - 07/06/04 05:55 PM Re: making the right choice
Jizz Offline
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Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 766
Loc: Central Maryland
IMHO the GTO is not a great car it is just an ok car -- so it has a peppy engine in it...it is on rated at high 13s -- do not get me wrong I am not bashing the car but

It has no trunk
only 2 doors
not all that fast
only handles as good a Comp G
no more features than a Comp G
Worse gas milage

IT IS NO TRANS AM! not even a "fair" replacement
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#151947 - 07/06/04 09:44 PM Re: making the right choice
fpo701 Offline
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Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 25
Loc: Akron, OH
Can anyone comment on the winter raod handling of the CompG's tuned suspension? By this I mean the darn pot holes we have all over the place here in Ohio. I recall back a year ago, some reviews questioned this combination.

Head room is not a problem, as I'm a lowly 5'4".

Dual Zone Climate Controls are not my main attraction to the new climate option (CJ2). I love being able to set a temperature (72) and leave it there pretty much all year round.

Stopped at dealer today to see how the packages laid out. Suprise. The DVD Navigation System comes with the Moonsoon Speakers. That means Monsoon is not limited to that CD Changer only package.
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#151948 - 07/06/04 09:57 PM Re: making the right choice
jvojr Offline
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Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Catskills, NY
It is definately not a Trans Am. I miss that car. I always wanted a new one, and just when I can afford one, bam, they stopped making them. Let's see GM throw an Eaton M112 blower on the GTO, ram air hood, and call it The Judge.
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2004 GTP CompG. WS6, 3.29 axle, HUD, tapshift, Premium sound, XM radio, leather, sunroof, 17inch 5 star chromies, BFG Comp T/A. Wizaired CAI.

Traded in. 2003 GTP. Every option but HUD. New Mods: Wizaired CAI, SLP Headers, Cat, U-bend and Downpipe, 3.2 Modular Pulley, Phase 3 rollers w/OR Pushrods, Larger Belt Tensioner Pulley, Gatorback, AL103's, 180 Degree Stat, DHP
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#151949 - 07/06/04 11:37 PM Re: making the right choice
AustinGTP Offline
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Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 8078
Loc: Austin, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by jvojr:
It is definately not a Trans Am. I miss that car. I always wanted a new one, and just when I can afford one, bam, they stopped making them. Let's see GM throw an Eaton M112 blower on the GTO, ram air hood, and call it The Judge.
Oh hell yeah!
cheers
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Died 5/1/08, resurrected 5/15/08
ASCD SD hood, 17" Bullitts, Overkill PCM, 3.4" Pulley, NGK TR55IX, K&N 9" cone filter, JimmyC D/P, U-bend removed, Flowmaster 40 series, Hooker big bore tips with resonators, S/B brake lines, drilled/slot rotors, GMPP handling kit, KYB struts, F&R strut supports, HID's, LED's, 2.5" Air Dam, red GTP overlays on custom badges, white rear insert.
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#151950 - 07/07/04 09:45 AM Re: making the right choice
Jizz Offline
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Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 766
Loc: Central Maryland
I live in Maryland. We have our share of bad roads because of the not so nice winters we have here. Not as bad a Ohio but still bad. The car does on jump much on bad road surfaces. I would avoid pot hole though just because of the lower profile sidewalls, can tear up your rims. But as for handling on bad surfaces...not a problem
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#151951 - 07/07/04 02:07 PM Re: making the right choice
zachd Offline
Member
Registered: 04/15/04
Posts: 1316
Loc: Evansville, IN
Quote:
Originally posted by jvojr:
It is definately not a Trans Am. I miss that car. I always wanted a new one, and just when I can afford one, bam, they stopped making them. Let's see GM throw an Eaton M112 blower on the GTO, ram air hood, and call it The Judge.
I don't know what blower they are going to use but PFYC.com is in the works for a SC kit for the GTO. I would hope they arent using the OLD m90 and moving up a little bit to something more efficient.......... hammer
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#151952 - 07/08/04 08:23 PM Re: making the right choice
Jizz Offline
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Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 766
Loc: Central Maryland
I will say this to sway your decision...

The only vehicle I have ever owned that I like better than my 04 WS6 GP was my 99 Vette Converty, but heck that is not even the same sport.

But I would not give up my GP for any other car that I have owned. Including my Avalanche (which I liked a LOT a whole LOT).

Take it for the 24hour test drive.
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#151953 - 07/08/04 08:27 PM Re: making the right choice
Jizz Offline
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Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 766
Loc: Central Maryland
As for Zachd last post... even a blower will not make the trunk bigger or make it look less like a big cavalier or a 19xx mini Lumina

It is a darn shapless blunder. A lego block. reminds me of a Scion....

WHY WHY DID THEY GET RID OF THE TRANS-AM... (please do not answer that... i know why)

WHY WHY WHY
banghead banghead banghead
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#151954 - 07/08/04 09:07 PM Re: making the right choice
zachd Offline
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Registered: 04/15/04
Posts: 1316
Loc: Evansville, IN
Quote:
Originally posted by Jizz:
As for Zachd last post... even a blower will not make the trunk bigger or make it look less like a big cavalier or a 19xx mini Lumina

It is a darn shapless blunder. A lego block. reminds me of a Scion....

WHY WHY DID THEY GET RID OF THE TRANS-AM... (please do not answer that... i know why)

WHY WHY WHY
banghead banghead banghead
Tru it won't make the trunk bigger. At this time i wouldnt trade my GT for anything but a GTP. But Jizz, you really hurt my fealings by comparing it to a Scion. Scion is trash, at least the GTO has the good ole ArrowHead? Ahh well, I would take a comp G over a GTO anyday because of the passenger trunk factor. I travel a bit so........G6 is still on my list of next vehicle.
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#151955 - 07/09/04 09:00 AM Re: making the right choice
Jizz Offline
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Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 766
Loc: Central Maryland
I just got a book from Pontiac. It says the G6 will have a hardtop converty option!!!!!

I may get one also!!!

as for the scion comparison -- I am just mad that GM put no thought into the shape of the car frown
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#151956 - 07/10/04 01:48 AM Re: making the right choice
Rich GTP Offline
Member
Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 52
Loc: New York
I agree with Jizz. GM made a big mistake and will pay by the bad sales. They also make a big mistake by advertising there cars much too soon
as in the new solstice. I'm sick of the car and it won't be out till next fall.Keep them under wraps, ask current owners there wants & needs.
By the way take the G6 ..whats the story with the multi panel sunroof.Who ever designed that should be fired.
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#151957 - 07/10/04 01:56 AM Re: making the right choice
Rich GTP Offline
Member
Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 52
Loc: New York
and by the way, Paint the side view mirrors on the G6 and start making them tilt in on all the pontiacs.
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#151958 - 07/12/04 10:28 PM Re: making the right choice
fpo701 Offline
Junior Member
Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 25
Loc: Akron, OH
OK. Thanks for helping. CompG it is.

Next question:
Have I gone off the deep end? I want to get the navigation system. Some say yes. My co-workers (software engineers) say no.
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#151959 - 07/13/04 10:44 AM Re: making the right choice
fpo701 Offline
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Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 25
Loc: Akron, OH
More info on Nav system. Yahoo Autos has pricing on the 2005's now. $2300 for the nav system. I've been to the dealer and know that the nav system also includes the Monsoon speakers. I wonder if that explains the large mark-up from the Vibe's system. I thought they were the same unit, running same application. That's what the G-Force had years ago.
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#151960 - 07/13/04 02:00 PM Re: making the right choice
Jizz Offline
Member
Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 766
Loc: Central Maryland
My guess is you will be paying for the "newness" of the Nav system in a GP. I am not big on them but I do not travel much out of the realm of

--where I know where I am either.--

A Nav system wuold be great for unknown areas. They are still a bit buggy but even when you miss a turn they tell you to turn around....better than reading a map IMHO.

And with that option that would put your Comp-G around $35K right?

Here is my opinion (now that I rambled on for 5 minutes) If you can afford it -- GET IT!

Better to have it and not need it -- Than to need it and not have it smile

Now $2300 for the Nav system -- is it the amplified Monsoon system or the regular system? In the Vibe with the Nav system you lose the high watt amp.
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#151961 - 07/13/04 09:31 PM Re: making the right choice
fpo701 Offline
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Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 25
Loc: Akron, OH
I don't travel much either, but do find myself having to go to local places I'm not sure about getting to. Plus, I can get from point A to points B and C. I have trouble getting from B to C without going back to A.

I did some quick adding using the Yahoo prices.
Base GTP: 26,435
CompG: 1,395
Climate: 275
Leather: 795
Navigation: 2,390
TOTAL: 31,290

I'm not sure on the Monsoon. What I do know is this. The navigation system box on the dealer's order system lists the RPO code for the Monsoon. Just like the premium audio group lists the RPO for the radio + the RPO code for the Monsoon. Both are the same code.
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#151962 - 07/14/04 02:24 AM Re: making the right choice
fpo701 Offline
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Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 25
Loc: Akron, OH
Another update. Was poking around the internet and Intellichoice has user-buildable 05's. It works exactly like the dealer system. Selecting some options automatically enables others. One I didn't notice is that the automatic A/C is only available with the CompG, Comfort and Info, or Comfort and InfoTech Packages. Same price, but I forgot to tack on $660 for destination. frown
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#151963 - 07/15/04 04:39 PM Re: making the right choice
why2kmax Offline
Member
Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: Bel Air Maryland
Quote:
Originally posted by Jizz:
IMHO the GTO is not a great car it is just an ok car -- so it has a peppy engine in it...it is on rated at high 13s -- do not get me wrong I am not bashing the car but

It has no trunk
only 2 doors
not all that fast
only handles as good a Comp G
no more features than a Comp G
Worse gas milage

IT IS NO TRANS AM! not even a "fair" replacement
Looks to be a perfect replacement to me.
TA had no trunk
TA had 2 doors
TA ran low 13s stock, GTO runs what 13.4?
TA handled ok but it wasnt stellar, I doubt better than a GTO
TA had same list of options a GTO does
TA got same mileage as GTO
TA had a HORRIBLE interior compared to the GTO
TA had no useable back seat, GTO does

looks good to me laugh
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#151964 - 07/15/04 07:11 PM Re: making the right choice
Adam S. Offline
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Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Milwaukee, Wi
Well put, why2kmax! I was afraid to type almost the same thing, but now that you opened the door...

The GTO isn't my favorite new performance car, but it's still worlds better than any F-body ever was.

The interiors shouldn't even be compared to one another. The F bodys' were always creeky, rattly and cheap looking. One of the things I like about the GTO is the simple yet well made interior, the use of quality materials, and superior tightness and fit. Not exactly F-body features. I can also guaranty that the GTO is a better driving, more balanced, tighter, more predictable, better braking, better handling, more efficient vehicle than the old F-body ever hoped to be. The F bodies were just like the Mustangs; old technology and quality standards wrapped in a pretty shell.

There, I feel better... smile
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#151965 - 07/15/04 07:26 PM Re: making the right choice
Adam S. Offline
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Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Milwaukee, Wi
Oh, and the reason GM finally put the F body out of its misery is the same reason any other line is dropped - It didn't sell.

And who's complaining about trunkspace and only 2 doors on a performance car? Why would GM release a 4 door performance sedan with a trunk, and call it a GTO; I think they already build one similar to that, can't remember the name of it though....

Would someone be justified to complain about Corvettes, Mustangs, and Vipers because they didn't build them as sedans, and don't have enough trunkspace? The GTO is obviously intended for a different market; it's a different car than a GP, and is intended for different use.
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#151966 - 07/15/04 07:39 PM Re: making the right choice
zachd Offline
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Registered: 04/15/04
Posts: 1316
Loc: Evansville, IN
Performance wise the TA beat the GTO. Real world overall quality of the ride the GTO has the Seat on the hill. It is the S***. While it may be a hair slower it will still haul ass has a better interior more usuable trunk IRS and hmmmmm it doesnt look as fast but will still haul and it does get good gas mileage, leard to drive a six speed and you can get close to teh GTP from teh manufacture rating.
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#151967 - 07/18/04 10:46 AM Re: making the right choice
why2kmax Offline
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Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: Bel Air Maryland
There is a good article in hemmings muscle car mag (august 2004 issue) that adresses all the things people bitch about the GTO for. It gives explanations as to why the car came out like it did. One of them says Pontiac originally designed hood scoops for the car but EPA/govt said they would have to do a standard 24 month aerodynamic/mpg/epa study of the car with that option, OR use the grand prix stats and give it NO hood scoops. GM set the intro date for 18 months so they axed the scoops. They said their testing showed NO Performance improvement with the scoops anyway. BUT they will be out for 05.
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#151968 - 07/18/04 11:50 AM Re: making the right choice
Jizz Offline
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Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 766
Loc: Central Maryland
Sigh ... THe Vette has more trunk capacity than th GTO ... I am not saying it need to be able to send me on a 2 week Family vacation but hell You could not get 2 golf bags and cloths in that trunk.

As for styling... ok everyone complained to get rid of the cladding but heck do not make it look like a big cavalier or Lumina.

Every rating I have seen for the GTO says 13.8 for the 1/4 mile -- The T/A was rated 13.3 DUDE THAT IS .5 Seconds -- that is not just a little bit. Its skid pad is only .02g better than the Comp-G. The Trans Am was about .9

Good thing the GTO was not a replacement for the TA -- I think if it is/was it fell short.

I'll take my Comp G over a GTO anyday.
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#151969 - 07/18/04 03:28 PM Re: making the right choice
Jizz Offline
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Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 766
Loc: Central Maryland
Do not get me wrong.. I would take a GTO over most vehicles out today - just a bit baffled why the lack of trying.. but as why2kmax said they only slated 18months for the job so it would make sense that they just used an existing setup...the DownUnder vehicle.

I suspect the nect couple gens will be pretty cool.
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#151970 - 07/19/04 01:31 AM Re: making the right choice
Adam S. Offline
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Well first of all, this is GM we're talking about; of course they're going to use an already existing setup, they always do.
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#151971 - 07/19/04 01:41 AM Re: making the right choice
Adam S. Offline
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Posts: 678
Loc: Milwaukee, Wi
If a T/A were to come out, say, right now, it would get laughed and criticized right off the market. It takes much more than a big engine to make a real performance car. For acceleration times, I would easily trade a half second (which you probably can't even notice by driving) for better braking, ergonomics, fit and finish, and mere lack of bulk and a Tupperware body. Not to mention more efficient, and a little more class as well. The GTO is much more of an adult's car; a Trans AM can usually be afforded after delivering enough pizzas.

Not that I think that the GTO styling couldn't have been a little more bold, but keep in mind that generally it's a handsome car, with smooth lines and good quality aspects. I agree; the car will get better the next couple years, I'm sure. I just hope the price doesn't start to creep up too much at the same time...
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#151972 - 07/19/04 04:00 PM Re: making the right choice
why2kmax Offline
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Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: Bel Air Maryland
Quote:
Originally posted by Jizz:
Sigh ... THe Vette has more trunk capacity than th GTO ... I am not saying it need to be able to send me on a 2 week Family vacation but hell You could not get 2 golf bags and cloths in that trunk.

As for styling... ok everyone complained to get rid of the cladding but heck do not make it look like a big cavalier or Lumina.

Every rating I have seen for the GTO says 13.8 for the 1/4 mile -- The T/A was rated 13.3 DUDE THAT IS .5 Seconds -- that is not just a little bit. Its skid pad is only .02g better than the Comp-G. The Trans Am was about .9

Good thing the GTO was not a replacement for the TA -- I think if it is/was it fell short.

I'll take my Comp G over a GTO anyday.
Im not trying to fight with you, just offer a different perspective, and I think you should try to keep the comparisons equal.

styling: I think they did what they could with the time they had. It looks like a cavalier because they had to use the aerodynamic certification for the GP so they couldnt change much if anything. Hell if they couldnt even put hood scoops on it, they sure couldnt do much if anything else. Personally I think they should have taken the time and waited for a mid 2004 or 2005 intro and done everything they wanted to do.

Trunk: could you really fit clothes and 2 golf bags in the TA? Not without folding down the seats. and if you are going to do that, just toss a set of clubs or your clothes in the back seat of the GTO. Sure the vette has more trunk room but it doesnt have 4 seats. Same difference either way.
The trunk is small because of where they had to relocate the gas tank for US crash compliance. Its not like they did it on purpose. Honestly though I think they really need to do something about that. The lack of trunkspace is a big negative IMO. As is the lack of a sunroof. How the hell do you design a car for AUSTRALIA where its sunny and warm everywhere and NOT give it a sunroof.

1/4 Mile time: was that 13.3 stick or auto for the TA? Ive seen 13.4 at 108mph as the best 6 speed time for the GTO in more than 1 magazine. the 13.8 is usually for the Auto.

As far as skidpad, I think the tires they use on the GTO are a lot more "all season" than the TA, and they are narrower. Plus the GTO is prob tuned more for ride than the old Fbody was.

One thing I realize as I get older, when you are in your 20s or younger, .1 second in the 1/4 mile and .1G on the skidpad mean Everything. you will spend 1,500 bucks just to drop your 1/4 time by .2 seconds. You drive around looking for someone to race, someone to embarrass. Is that mustang faster than me, lets find out punk.
Thats why some people pay $900 for the total BMR suspension kit instead of $150 for the GMPP.

WHen you are 30+ and 40+, and you have a family etc, you really dont give a rats ass if the car runs 13.5 or 13.0, as long as its moderately comfortable, doesnt beat you up and is FUN to drive and you can take a kid or two somewhere in a pinch.

I think the GTO was/is intended for that 2nd crowd.
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#151973 - 07/19/04 04:08 PM Re: making the right choice
why2kmax Offline
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Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: Bel Air Maryland
This is more of what the GTO should have come out looking like.

http://www.fast-autos.net/pontiac/pontiacgtoac.html

Its all done with GMPP parts for cryin out loud.
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#151974 - 07/19/04 07:36 PM Re: making the right choice
Jizz Offline
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Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 766
Loc: Central Maryland
I am 34 - I would take a TA over a GTO right now. The GTO is an engineering blunder if you ask me.... it has even been said in more than one post; they had very little time to get it out hum what does that mean for the car.... I have taken a good look at the GTO.. does not impress me much at all.

I am more interested in what they have coming out after the short lived GTO is gone.

My GP is a way better buy.
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#151975 - 07/19/04 11:07 PM Re: making the right choice
Adam S. Offline
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Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Milwaukee, Wi
I would agree with that at least; the GP is a better buy for the money. But, what domestic car ISN'T released ASAP, while the clock is ticking, which usually comromises certain aspects of the car. I got news for ya; Detroit has been known for doing that for years! I don't even think it's an arguable point, since anything else is the same way. It's not like the T/A spent years and years on the drawing board and in the wind tunnel, not to be released until it was absolutely perfect. They were worse back then at it than they are now. Why do you think almost all first year production models usually have a nice long list of problems associated with them? GM, as well as others, have actually figured out that it is cheaper (for them) to get something out on the market ASAP with KNOWN problems, and take care or recall them later, than to delay production and get them better before the release. All in all, if we're talking about engineering blunders and quality, an F-Body is hardly a good example of how things should be!
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#151976 - 07/20/04 03:26 AM Re: making the right choice
zachd Offline
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Registered: 04/15/04
Posts: 1316
Loc: Evansville, IN
Amen Bro Amen. I can now go to sleep!
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#151977 - 07/20/04 05:23 PM Re: making the right choice
why2kmax Offline
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Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: Bel Air Maryland
Quote:
Originally posted by Adam S.:
I would agree with that at least; the GP is a better buy for the money. But, what domestic car ISN'T released ASAP, while the clock is ticking, which usually comromises certain aspects of the car. I got news for ya; Detroit has been known for doing that for years! I don't even think it's an arguable point, since anything else is the same way. It's not like the T/A spent years and years on the drawing board and in the wind tunnel, not to be released until it was absolutely perfect. They were worse back then at it than they are now. Why do you think almost all first year production models usually have a nice long list of problems associated with them? GM, as well as others, have actually figured out that it is cheaper (for them) to get something out on the market ASAP with KNOWN problems, and take care or recall them later, than to delay production and get them better before the release. All in all, if we're talking about engineering blunders and quality, an F-Body is hardly a good example of how things should be!
I agree, it is cheaper for them to do that. and maybe easier. BUT what they havent figured out even yet is that it builds a bad reputation and ill will between the company/product and the buying public. Its a LOT harder to overcome bad perceptions than tarnish a good one. What they are doing is shooting themselves in the foot and destroying their ability to regain marketshare. IMO honda, toyota and BMW arent what they used to be (more recalls more problems etc) but you still see people paying $1000s over sticker to get one.
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#151978 - 07/20/04 07:57 PM Re: making the right choice
zachd Offline
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I don't see anyone paying anything over sticker for any of the cars you've listed? It just doesnt happen especially on a mass produced scale. Now if it where that new Bentley or something rare yeah i can see that but i dont see someone going out and wanting a honda pilot so bad that they pay 3 thousand more than what it is worth just to get it. It doesnt happen.
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#151979 - 07/20/04 08:59 PM Re: making the right choice
why2kmax Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by zachd:
I don't see anyone paying anything over sticker for any of the cars you've listed? It just doesnt happen especially on a mass produced scale. Now if it where that new Bentley or something rare yeah i can see that but i dont see someone going out and wanting a honda pilot so bad that they pay 3 thousand more than what it is worth just to get it. It doesnt happen.
It happened when they first came out in 03 and at my local dealer demand was so great for 04 pilots, they were giving 500 off and adding 2000 in "accessories" no deals. The waiting list was 2 months long.

Either way you wont see 5,000 incentive bonus cash on toyota or honda or bmw.
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#151980 - 07/21/04 02:05 AM Re: making the right choice
Adam S. Offline
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Not to mention when the S2000 came out; the MSRP was in the high twenty's, and the people were paying in the mid thirtys for them, all because of dealer markup. Although, the same has happened with domestic cars as well, not just the foreign cars.
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#151981 - 07/22/04 01:00 PM Re: making the right choice
why2kmax Offline
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Rather than a premium, what I should have said was toyota, honda and bmw dont have to bribe people to buy their cars with huge incentives because of public perception of their vehicles.


Look what oil prices and public perception have done to the prius. Its selling for $5,000 over sticker in Baltimore and I saw 2 articles stating they were getting $10,000 over sticker in California.

Granted honda/toyota etc are good cars but IMO they arent as good as people THINK they are. Just like American cars arent NOT poorly designed or "cheap" or "unreliable" as the majority of americans THINK they are.

GM still needs to do something about their interiors. The 04 GP seems a quantum leap over anything previous but yet GM still shoots itself in the foot. Look at the Equinox, it gets rave reviews for design, size, space efficiency etc but when you get to the interior, it sucks. Its cheap and flimsy plasticky. It ruins the overall impression of the rest of the truck to the point that I wouldnt buy it. And I dont feel too good about driving something with a V6 made in China, no matter how old/good the design. How they can put the 250hp honda V6 in the VUE and not the equinox is beyond common sense to me. Its things like that, that make unfavorable impressions on people.

GM needs to take some of that discount money and just lower the price of the car period and not move, OR put it into better materials in the interiors or wherever they are lacking. They have to get out of the "we have to price it $10,000 more than what it should sell for because we will have to discount it 5-7,000 dollars to get people to buy it" mentality.
When you make a quality product, people will buy it.

Maybe thats why I like the GTO so much, I can forgive the vanilla styling because of the drivetrain and the interior. even if it does have a crappy trunk. Incidently the local dealer was getting $5,000 over sticker on the GTOs. Now I see he has 3 and they are advertized for $29,990 Im sure all the talk about a Judge version and a 400 hp LS2 is now hurting sales of the 04 big time. Id wait too.
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#151982 - 07/22/04 01:47 PM Re: making the right choice
AustinGTP Offline
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Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 8078
Loc: Austin, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by why2kmax:

Either way you wont see 5,000 incentive bonus cash on toyota or honda or bmw.
Mitsubishi is the world worst at giving incentives to buy their new cars. When I had my Montero Sport, I had a horrible time trying to get rid of it. Nobody wanted it when they can go to the dealer and get a brand new one for zero down, zero interest and zero payments for the first 12 months.
The Honda dealer where I found my GTP told me that people ask him all the time for incentives for Honda's. He said he told them Honda doesn't need to bribe anyone to buy their cars, they sell on their own.
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Died 5/1/08, resurrected 5/15/08
ASCD SD hood, 17" Bullitts, Overkill PCM, 3.4" Pulley, NGK TR55IX, K&N 9" cone filter, JimmyC D/P, U-bend removed, Flowmaster 40 series, Hooker big bore tips with resonators, S/B brake lines, drilled/slot rotors, GMPP handling kit, KYB struts, F&R strut supports, HID's, LED's, 2.5" Air Dam, red GTP overlays on custom badges, white rear insert.
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#151983 - 07/22/04 02:40 PM Re: making the right choice
why2kmax Offline
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yeah Mitsu is getting creamed on that 0/0/0 stuff. They discounted the cars, then gave them away to anyone for nothing down, nothing to pay for a year. So any kid out of highschool with a job could drive a new car for what seemed like Free. great, sales boomed.

I think a lot of people went for that BUT when the the payment book came in the mail after that year, they just turned the car over to the bank. So mitsu has a gazillion of its cars that were already discounted, then beat for a year without a penny ever having been paid on it. So they are worth almost nothing, they had nothing paid on them and now they cant sell them.

Even if you DID keep the car, you would be a year+ behind in equity and almost never owe less than it was worth until maybe the last year or 2 of the loan since the car depreciated like a rock but you never paid a penny on it to reduce the loan ammount. Its a great in the short term, until you get that payment book. People today want something new every 2 years if they can wait that long. (me included). Keeping that car 6 years to pay off the 5 yr loan is almost a death sentence. LOL

Wonder how many millions $$$ in severance pay the rocket scientist got for coming up with that scheme.
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#151984 - 07/26/04 03:04 PM Re: making the right choice
why2kmax Offline
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From todays carconnection.com

GTO Going, Going, but Not Gone

General Motors has no intention of abandoning its reborn GTO badge, despite a slow start-up for the Australian-made muscle car. The GTO "is a permanent addition to thePontiac stable," GM's Bob Lutz, stressed during an interview with TheCarConnection.com. "Maybe in retrospect, we should have done a more retro (looking) car," the GM vice chairman added, but he forcefully emphasized that "the car is not a flop." If anything, Pontiac officials insist that the "Goat" is gaining momentum, especially in the critical California market. While dealers in import-oriented Los Angeles account for only 1.4 percent of total Pontiac sales nationwide, they generated 4.6 percent of the overall GTO volume through mid-July, according to company data. While Lutz declined to discuss future product plans, industry sources report that the next generation of Pontiac's muscle car will be much more aggressively styled than the current, jellybean-shaped two-door. GM has good reason to hang onto the GTO. Since it's adding incremental volume to a product already on sale in Australia, "It's making a lot of money," despite a slow start in the U.S., said Lutz. -Paul A. Eisenstein
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#151985 - 07/26/04 09:16 PM Re: making the right choice
zachd Offline
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And now on to arueing wiht a door knob......Of course the S2000 doesnt have rebates and sold for thousands more. Think Corvette. Think Cobra. Thing Possible the new GT. Anything 'new' will catch a premium. But on a mass scale my honda dealership that also sells Audi, BMW, mercedes(of which seems to have a lotta AMG's smile ) VW honda nissan. I looked at several of these cars. Not the S2000 because they didnt have one. But you cannot compare the Grand prix to the S2000 on terms of sales and the 'gotta have it' factor.

I guess is what im trying to say is that some of the arguments on the board could end up looking like this.

" Rodney Carrington almost took the Miss America Contest this year but instead one out to a Model?'

"Hottie of the year almost went to MIMI from the Drew Carey show but instead Paris Hilton got it"

Everyone compares cars that are not even to the same class. If you are going to talk about over priced cars with no rebates do it but dont compare it to the car of the masses because cars of the masses do not sell at a "premium" like that listed for the S2000. There are not nearly as many S2000 on the road as there are GTPs only not including the rest of the grand prix family.

Hopefully I wasnt just off the wall on this I myself included sometimes this board just baffles me.
notontopic
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#151986 - 07/26/04 09:17 PM Re: making the right choice
zachd Offline
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Oh one more thing. WE DONT BUY CARS AS INVESTMENTS!!!!! WHO CARES THAT IT LOSES VALUE!!!! IT ALWAYS WILL!!!!!

PS i had the caps locks on purpose!!!!!
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#151987 - 07/27/04 03:55 PM Re: making the right choice
Adam S. Offline
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I think everyone's guilty of all the rebates and incentives these days. Honestly, GM doesn't really care what happens to resale value. They only care about big overall sales numbers, sometimes moreso than actual profit. They've hit sales records the past couple years, which is all that matters to them. It just sucks for the ones trading in their old models. But look out, it's going to get worse again. GM announced a couple weeks ago that they're going to get aggressive with their rebates, etc. again, due to slipping sales. It's a buyer's market these days, and that's about it!
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#151988 - 07/27/04 04:30 PM Re: making the right choice
Adam S. Offline
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Also, actually I think most people actually care what their car's value is worth in the future. Of course we don't buy them for investments, unless it's a classic or something like that. It's a worthwhile argument, and resale really does matter to someone who is financially concious.

If it weren't for the discounts, rebates, and my GMS pricing, I would've opted for a GP that was a year or two old, with maybe 10 or 20k on it. It'll be thousands less than new, most likely be in like-new condition, and it has taken most of it's first year value-hit already. That's really the best way to go, I feel. If things stay the way they are, it's the way I'll be going next time around...
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#151989 - 07/27/04 04:43 PM Re: making the right choice
why2kmax Offline
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Registered: 05/01/03
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Loc: Bel Air Maryland
Quote:
Originally posted by zachd:
Oh one more thing. WE DONT BUY CARS AS INVESTMENTS!!!!! WHO CARES THAT IT LOSES VALUE!!!! IT ALWAYS WILL!!!!!

In certain cases I do. Let me caveat this by saying I dont expect to ever get my payments back and I dont buy cars as investments and I know they will always depreciate. But you can limit the damage.

My wife drives about 10,000 miles a year. We bought an 00 honda CRV in 2000, put $2,500 down and took a 5 year loan. We liked the 02 a lot more when it came out. Sold our 00 with 17,000 miles on it and ended up with $4,000 after paying off the loan. Put the 4k on the 02 and away we go. Now its 04, want a bigger vehicle. Sold the 02 CRV after 2 years with 18,500 miles on it, had about $5,200 left after paying the loan and put that down on an 04 Pilot. Simple fact is, the honda SUVs we bought didnt depreciate like rocks so when I wanted something else in 2 years, I didnt end up owing $20,000 on a truck that I could only sell for $12,000.

Friend of mine bought a 2000 Dodge Intrepid. 2 years later he needed a minivan but could only sell the Intrepid for $4,000 less than what he owed. He bought the minivan and added the negative equity to the van loan. Now the van is worth less than what he paid plus the 4k negative equity means he wont be buying anything anytime soon.

Me I drive about 35,000 miles a year. I keep a car 4-5 years until I hit bout 150-200k. Therefore I need a car that doesnt really hold its value so I can buy something as new as I can as cheaply as I can because lets face it, its going to get pounded into the ground. The GTP is perfect. its a great car, durable, comfortable and will run 200k with little problem. The bonus FOR ME is that you can get them 2-3 years later for half of what they sold for. NOT good for GM, but Good for me. the only thing I fear is getting in a mild accident where the damage isnt that bad but exceeds the value of the vehicle. Id cry if my GTP got totaled just because of a little front end damage.

personally I wish GM cars held their value, I love em and Id love to see the big 3 on top of the world again. Hopefully they will continue improving their interiors and learn to make better and bolder changes/designs to their cars. Maybe by 2010 Ill be buying an accord for work and a Caddy SRX for home.
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#151990 - 07/27/04 04:46 PM Re: making the right choice
why2kmax Offline
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Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: Bel Air Maryland
Quote:
Originally posted by Adam S.:
I think everyone's guilty of all the rebates and incentives these days. Honestly, GM doesn't really care what happens to resale value. They only care about big overall sales numbers, sometimes moreso than actual profit. They've hit sales records the past couple years, which is all that matters to them. It just sucks for the ones trading in their old models. But look out, it's going to get worse again. GM announced a couple weeks ago that they're going to get aggressive with their rebates, etc. again, due to slipping sales. It's a buyer's market these days, and that's about it!
Adam you make a good point. everyone cares about upping the ante, more and bigger sales figures, not resale or what it does to people or the company. every business is like that. But isnt there some limit out there? Isnt there a point where the car market is just saturated and sales have to eventually slip a little? Why is a dip in the numbers so awful? they eventually go back up again when the next round of buyers come to the table.
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#151991 - 07/27/04 10:34 PM Re: making the right choice
zachd Offline
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Loc: Evansville, IN
why2k i hear what your saying but the big thang that help you keep positive equity in your car is hte 2500 cash down. That saved you a buttload of interest and everything. But my point to make was that you will never get what you paid for them and some people start to sound like i paid this and i cant get any of it back. the only investment that i look at when i buy a car is how much i enjoy it, how well it gets the job down (my old grand prix value dropped like a something really big not sure what) but it never left me stranded and only started to show some problems at the end.(it was wrecked) And as for as the slipping sales? Who knows? The thing that keeps it moving is the willingness for people to finance and finance away and that will hurt a lotta people down the road. I financed my new car. I just financed a house. But in less than 10 years half my house will already be paid for and i will still have my grand prix(unless it gets wrecked or hurt frown )and i will buy used cars again for play toys im sure. but now that i got way of topic i will end this post by saying. nothing. at all. hammer
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#151992 - 07/29/04 10:31 AM Re: making the right choice
Adam S. Offline
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I guess this is why I just plan on driving the wheels off my GP until it's dead. If you take care of these things, you'll get easily over 200k, which I fell give you your money's worth if you keep up on the car mechanically and cosmetically. It's when you trade in every year or every other year that you get socked, especially these days. You keep digging yourself a hole 4 or 5 thousand dollars at a time every time you trade in, and in 5 or 6 years you've accumulated enough debt on a car that isn't worth a fraction of it, and basically still paying on debt from the last few cars. All of that to drive the latest and greatest. Everyone's got a different view on this topic I think, but financially if you buy new you'll come out best by just driving it until it's dead. That is of course unless you're spending a shitload on major repairs, which on one of these usually isn't a concern.
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#151993 - 07/29/04 08:15 PM Re: making the right choice
Jizz Offline
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Registered: 03/22/04
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Quote:
Originally posted by zachd:
Oh one more thing. WE DONT BUY CARS AS INVESTMENTS!!!!! WHO CARES THAT IT LOSES VALUE!!!! IT ALWAYS WILL!!!!!

PS i had the caps locks on purpose!!!!!
AMEN BRO NOW I CAN SLEEP (I also had the caps on devilgrin )
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#151994 - 08/02/04 07:08 PM Re: making the right choice
Adam S. Offline
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Only people who are financially sensible care about what there car is worth in the future. But no, the rest of us don't.
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#151995 - 08/02/04 08:04 PM Re: making the right choice
Layoric Offline
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Registered: 09/10/03
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Loc: New York
I had a 2000 Ford Lightning, Best Waste of Money IMHO laugh

I had it for 3 years and only lost a few thousand dollars when I sold it, It is nice when the vehicle retains some of its worth.

Had to buy a Comp G thumbsup
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