I realize that freedom of speech means that we get to voice our opinions and I agree with that respect it...but I do weary of the communist/socialst remarks in regard to the President. I never voted for Bush nor did I agree with many of his policies and actions but I never referred to him as a tyrant or an eliteist...he was still the President and deserved at least that level of respect.

That being said, I dont see where trying to make life better for the majority of the nation makes anyone a socialist and if it does then all the time when the Wall streeters and white collar types were milking this country for all they could get then that ok in the name of free enterprise and capitalism? Driving the housing market, health care industry and auto industry to all time levels of high cost, no matter how many people got squeezed to death on the bottom end is considered acceptable?

If it were not for Govt health care programs (Medicare, Medicaid) my own mother would be six feet under today...or even if she had recieved the bypass operation she would have lost her home under the weight of medical bills. Both my children are struggling to make living and neither have any measure of health care that would serve them if the suffered an accident off the job. I find it ironic how we are the wealthiest nation on Earth but we cant make health care work as well as other countries do. Yes,yes I've heard all the horror stories how people die waiting for procedure in other countries, but it happens here too for lack of coverage...at least there they can have hope it might happen. There is no simple answer but the system as is sucks huge and so many people with coverage or help is stomp down shameful. All because it isnt about helping people anymore...its all about profit. Both my sister and her husband work in health care and neither of them like how it works either and tells me its pretty big problem.

As far as Iraq goes, we never should have stormed in guns blazing until the job in Afghanistan was finished (we see now it wasnt) Saddam was bad man to be sure but he would have sunk himself eventually and at least a NATO backed force wouldnt have put the whole of the cost on us...so now we are in debt to China up to our eyeballs. I dont see all that as really smart, well thought out moves but it was what Bush chose and whats done is done.
Iraq is a country wallowing in money...our oil money really...so why should we have to shoulder the bills of this war twice?...especially when there are problems just as large at home.

The other issue I find disturbing is how Wall street and the Auto industry and health care too is always saying "get the Govt off our backs and let us do business"...well CAFE standards got delayed and trucks were exempt and the housing and lending markets went wild, then once they painted themselves into a corner they come crying to the one group they wanted out of their way to bail them out. This tells me plain and simple that the so called free enterprise system has turned into mass mayhem...or the rough equivalent of an NFL game with no referees...just this side of the gladiator bloodlust...kill or be killed as long as we turn a profit.

I dont believe that Govt run everything is the answer but right now there is no other entity that has the ability to stop the madness. The Govt is supposed to be the voice of the people or at least the majority of the people so there is now way everybody is going to be happy.
This country lives and dies on the backs of the working class...and they dont want handouts...they want jobs that pay them more than welfare or unemployment pays so they can do for themselves. So if the top 20% that has all the money doesnt "trickle down" a darn sight more than they have just who is going to be left to buy the products they so brilliantly outsourced to ther countries? If they would that of their own accord there would be no need to threaten them with larger taxes...but I fear greed will keep them just as blind as they have always been.

Well said, the polarization rampant in America today is sickening. Us versus them.

What also got me thinking was... Why don't they just pay me 80% more on my salary, let me collect my own interest, and drop unemployment pay all together. If you don't spend your money wise, then it your fault, shoulda looked futher ahead in the future.

....but oh that's right, companies are making money off OUR (fund) money.

Tbat, by no means is our healthcare system perfect, but it's the best in the world. And if it's not, why do rich people come HERE for treatment? No other country that has gov't healthcare has a system that works. Why would we be any different?

Just as one example, here is the survival rate for prostate cancer:

USA: mid-high 90%
France: 74%
Britain: 51%

That is a HUGE difference! Why would we want that to happen to us?

Regarding gov't health insurance vs. private health insurance, Obama said that private insurance will still be able to do business. Look at UPS and FedEx, they run fine, it's always the USPS that is having problems. HOW is that supposed to make me feel BETTER?!

One last question: Maybe you didn't call Bush a tyrant, but did you tell people they should respect him like you're saying about Obama? If you did, great, but too many people seem to think it's ok to call Bush an idiot or a tyrant, but to call Obama an idiot or a socialist is un-American or un-patriotic.
That's not a double standard at all! lol

I agree with you Ace that healthcare is best in America... But it still shouldn't cost me $20 for a band-aid at the clinic... i'll bring my own.

I don't think that's quite inline with how the system works...... I can't make an argument(which is why I started this thread) but I believe the companies pay into a fund that is ran by the govt. That's why you go to a govt. office to make a claim instead of your previous employer.
I heard today that an employer pay's the State a percentage, or a particular dollar amount per hour worked by all employees which could change business to business pending on claims made among each industry. With that being said, I can't imagine that there is a "fund" for every individual worker out there.

No, I was just saying afund, not in a individual worker sense but as a whole. But yes, I know what your saying. What i'm saying maybe not be completely true, but I would have to believe that someone is gaining profits in terms of interest (whether it's your employer/state or gv't), because no one in their right business mind would just let money "sit" in a fund/account and not be building interest/profit off it.

Well, my belief is that while you're working you and your employer are contributing to "a fund". That fund gets distributed to all of the unemployed. If you become unemployed you can no longer contribute to the fund. If you make a claim you will be drawing off of the people that are still working and their employers.
Kinda like Social Security. The money you pay into SS goes to the people that are drawing from it. It's not going into a fund for you to draw out of when you retire.

Our health care system is the best in the world for the people who can get it. A 90% survival rate is great but that is 90% of people that actually get treated. Rich people come here from other countries for one reason...in their country their money doesnt buy them a spot at the front of the line like it does here. Poor and low income people go to Canada to try and get the health care they cant afford or get here for pre-existing conditions, so there is a flip side to the issue. The amount of money that is being profited off of the sick in this country is outright shameful and it has ugly side effects.
Doctors come here from other countries, which hurts their health care systems by making them short on staff...but they come here in droves and want to practice here strictly for the wealth to be made. I'm sorry but I think that is a fundemental tragedy. Govt employed people like military, police, fire and teachers do their jobs for ethics and duty and do so for pitiful salaries. I personally dont think someone should become a doctor because it means a fat paycheck, they should do it for ethical reasons as well. Should they be paid well? absolutely...but so should those other jobs. If the pay here was at least comparable to some of the foreign countries the flow of doctors into the USA would slow drastically.

I agree the care here is the best in the world but only for those who can get access to it...and dont say anyone can get it because I know for fact that is crap. My son has needed arthroscopic surgery on his knee for better than three years but with no coverage on the jobs he has been able to get leaves him out in the cold. He cant afford it out of pocket (darn few could) so he is left with wearing a brace and dealing with the pain. In a country this wealthy and this many resources that just shouldnt happen.

Tim don't think Obama care will do that surgery if your son does fine with a brace and pain meds.

I don't have a problem with people collecting unemployment. The program is there. Once they worked the requisite hours/days etc they are entitled to it. The benefit does run out for each individual. Only now the time limit has been raised by Obama's administration because of the economic chaos this country is in. The only time I don't care for people being on un-employment are those who work just long enough then milk the benifit to it's fullest, get another job just long enough to collect again and rinse repeat.

I've got a question, and this is an honest question, because I don't know the answer to it: Why don't people just GET health insurance, rather than asking the gov't to pay for it? I mean, my thinking is (and I admit this is one part of this subject that I know little about), why should I have to pay for you when you could do it?

If there is something wrong about that, please tell me.

However, I will say this: for problems that you NEED, it really doesn't matter too much if you don't have insurance. My dad has had either three or four heart attacks in the past 3 years, and has congestive heart failure. He has no health insurance, and as his credit score (or lack thereof) would tell, the hospital won't see a dime, but he hasn't been denied care once. If it's something life threatening, if you go to the hospital, they cannot turn you away. Here, anyway - try it in Canada or Europe and see what happens.

*EDIT* I should add that my point is people aren't going to die because they can't afford help. They can get the help they need. Yes, there might be financial problems, but I'd rather be alive in debt than dead because I couldn't get help because everything the gov't runs is slow and useless. Is that the perfect solution? No. But like I said, even though ours isn't perfect, it's the best in the world, so we need to stop before rushing into something that other countries have tried and every single one of them is failing at.

lol, yes I am sure in canada they send away people having heart attacks because they need to wait in line. :rolleyes: Your dad is part of the problem the public option is trying to eliminate. he does not have insurance, and instead of being proactive about staying healthy, he waits until an emergency, probably because he can't afford to go to the doctor. It is much much cheaper to take care of a health problem early before it gets worse.

As far as why people don't have health insurance: young and healthy, don't want it (stupid reason IMO, unless you've got a couple $100k saved up for an emergency, even then...); can't afford it (unemployed, private insurance is extremely expensive); can't get it (pre-existing conditions); in between jobs (at least with the current system).

If people are unemployed or working for minimum wage (or barely over) health care get knocked to the bottom of the priority list in leiu of rent,food and transportation. There will always be abusers in every system both at the top and the bottom. minimizing that abuse should be priority but not before providing care for those in need.

I keep hearing so many people clamoring about why they should have to pay for other peoples health care. With costs like they are you are already being milked to death in premiums. I would personally rather my contribution be helping those in need that providing another doctor with his third vacation home or his 4th trip to the Bahamas this year. The other thing I have noticed is that to my knowledge no proposal has been made to provide absolutely free health care. Options are trying to be explored to provide low cost and more affordable health care.
Look at the basis behind group insurance coverage, the bigger the group, the lower the premium. If there are 40 million uninsured wouldnt it be better to collect small premiums from many (they arent ALL unemployed) than to just shut them out? The reason why this happens get back to business, not caring for people. If the insurance companies can collect higher premiums from less people who they deem to be low risk then they extend their own profit margins...and the rest is a "let them eat cake" mentality.
To me so much of this debate is so very similar to the auto industry self imposed boondoggle. If the health care industry want the Govt out of their playground then they should fix their own problems. They should be more knowledgable than anyone else about how to do it well. However they dont want the boat rocked as is since it would mean less profit margin...the regard to provided care and human compassion is a distant second...so now the Govt must make the threat to control the system if they will not. If they dont want it that way then get off their fat cat azz and get it done...but once again the greed factor will not allow them to act rationally.
Where the heck would we be if the police, fire and military only responded when it was profitable for them to do so?

I'm not disagreeing with that point. I'm simply saying this whole argument people use of "people are dying because they can't afford help!" is totally bogus.

I've never heard that argument used. As you say, hospitals are required to treat people, it just ends up costing us way more that way in many cases.