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#170418 - 04/11/07 11:48 PM No G8 after all?!?!?!?!?!?
Dementeddj Offline
Member
Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 712
Loc: Kansas (Redneck Country)
hey everybody, I saw this, and it got me wondering what GM was really gonna do. it wouldn't work unless you registered, but i think I got it all copied. I'll include the link also:

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=516631


You need to register to read the linked article from the Trib's archives.

I'm registered (as I'm a subscriber) so here you all go.

General Motors has put a hold on future rear-wheel-drive vehicles.

"We've pushed the pause button. It's no longer full speed ahead," Vice Chairman Bob Lutz revealed in an interview.

Two of the most important RWD cars in the works are the Chevy Camaro sports coupe due back late in 2008 and the full-size, RWD replacement for the Chevy Impala sedan for 2009. Both are expected to be huge sellers and contribute major profits to a GM till burdened with IOUs the last few years.

"It's too late to stop Camaro, but anything after that is questionable or on the bubble," said Lutz, noting that also means Camaro derivatives -- along with a big Impala sedan, "if we call it Impala."

The RWD cars, you see, would be larger and heavier than front-wheel-drive cars or are high-performance models.

So it comes down to the matter of fuel economy. Or as Lutz says: "We don't know how to get 30 percent better mileage from" RWD cars.

That 30 percent bogey arises from a proposal by the Bush administration to raise corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) standards by 4 percent a year so cars would have to average 34 m.p.g. by 2017, up from 27.5 m.p.g. today. On top of that, the Supreme Court ruled last week that the Environmental Protection Agency can regulate carbon dioxide expelled by cars, a gas that contributes to global warming. The EPA doesn't do so now.

"We'll decide on our rear-drive cars when the government decides on CO(-2) levels and CAFE regulations," Lutz said, adding that limiting CO(-2) would increase mileage, too.

"Carbon dioxide is a natural byproduct of burning gas and directly proportional to the amount of fuel burned. If we legislate CO(-2) from cars, why not legislate we take one less breath per minute since humans release capricious amounts of CO(-2) each time they exhale?" offered a testy Lutz.

Lutz also points out that higher mileage will come at a price, with the proposal to raise CAFE certain to increase costs by as much as $5,000, which will be added to a car's sticker, an amount most consumers won't be willing to pay. There are no hard numbers for how much CAFE compliance adds to the sticker now.

"Rather than buy new, people would hang onto their old cars. We could eat the $5,000, but that would put us out of business."

Besides, those who see cars as more than just an appliance are eager for the new RWD offerings.

Among other cars affected are a high-performance midsize Pontiac, a replacement for the full-size Buick Lucerne sedan, a compact smaller than the current CTS at Cadillac and possible 300-horsepower versions of the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky roadsters.

"This is very disappointing," noted Erich Merkle, director of forecasting for IRN Inc., in Grand Rapids, Mich. Most of the cars coming are necessary to GM's turnaround as showroom magnets.

"What the public buys makes CAFE work, not what the industry builds," Merkle added. "To improve mileage you change demand, not supply, by raising gas prices through taxes. But no politician is going to do that so they throw the responsibility on the back of the industry."

Lutz also objects to the talk that carmakers can easily raise mileage with a very low investment.

"Academics assure us that for $200 we can get 30 percent better mileage. If anyone can figure out how to do that for $200 -- or even for $1,000 -- I want them in my office today. Show me how to do it and we'll adopt it," he said. "If I could increase mileage by 30 percent for $200, why wouldn't I? What's my motivation not to when a gas-electric hybrid gets 27 percent better mileage and I hope someday to get the cost down to $9,000?"

Others insist that carmakers simply have to sell more small cars, such as the trio of 1-liter concepts that promise 40 m.p.g.-plus that GM unveiled at the New York Auto Show.

"Small-car mileage only counts toward CAFE if you build them here, and you can't build small cars here at a profit," Lutz said, explaining that foreign-made cars would count toward the automaker's import fleet, and its domestic fleet is where GM needs help.
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98 GTP GMPP handling kit, HomemadeFWI, MSD coils, Taylor wires, 180 drilled tstat, TR6IX plugs, Intense STD PCM, JimmyC DP, Thrasher shift kit (mild setting), AGX/Intrigue spring setup, drilled/slotted rotors with Hawk HPS pads. Hopefully more to come
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#170419 - 04/12/07 12:56 AM Re: No G8 after all?!?!?!?!?!?
TastyBake Offline
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Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 1563
Loc: Ohio
Wonder what Chrysler's Hemi is going to do.

Also, why did they keep going forward with bigger engines (6.0L) without paying attention to its mileage? Make it smaller, more efficient, perhaps less power. If they want more power? Supercharger.
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#170420 - 04/12/07 01:33 AM Re: No G8 after all?!?!?!?!?!?
Dementeddj Offline
Member
Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 712
Loc: Kansas (Redneck Country)
Quote:
Originally posted by TastyBake:
Wonder what Chrysler's Hemi is going to do.

Also, why did they keep going forward with bigger engines (6.0L) without paying attention to its mileage? Make it smaller, more efficient, perhaps less power. If they want more power? Supercharger.
dunno, I just remember hearing that GM is going to try to regain customers by the "rebirth" of the RWD car, and it seemed like it had begun to work, now I hear that it's not gonna happen? Is the general doomed???
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98 GTP GMPP handling kit, HomemadeFWI, MSD coils, Taylor wires, 180 drilled tstat, TR6IX plugs, Intense STD PCM, JimmyC DP, Thrasher shift kit (mild setting), AGX/Intrigue spring setup, drilled/slotted rotors with Hawk HPS pads. Hopefully more to come
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#170421 - 04/12/07 07:49 AM Re: No G8 after all?!?!?!?!?!?
HercMan(Rob) Offline
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Registered: 09/12/03
Posts: 14035
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
I don't see the G8 being affected. The G8 is a full size. A midsize Pontiac would be the GTO or it's replacement. Sounds to me Chevy is gonna be the brand to take it in the shorts for a while.

Remember the G8 is a left hand drive Commodore and to keep the archaic CAFE standards happy they will build my guess is 90% V6 models and 10% of the high perf V8s.
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#170422 - 04/12/07 02:30 PM Re: No G8 after all?!?!?!?!?!?
SlickGTP Offline
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Registered: 03/26/07
Posts: 1399
Loc: Houston, TX
I don't think the G8 will be affect as HercMan noted... But I think it sucks because I was looking forward to what they could've done with the GTO... =\
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Kinda sorta, yeah, no?

'02 Black GTP - RIP 03/03/08 ||| '06 Black G35 MT6 - Stock ||| '73 Chevy half ton(resurrected)
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#170423 - 04/12/07 03:29 PM Re: No G8 after all?!?!?!?!?!?
HercMan(Rob) Offline
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Registered: 09/12/03
Posts: 14035
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
More confirmation

Link: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=120407

Article Quote:

"It's no longer full speed ahead," Lutz said. He added that "it's too late to stop Camaro, but anything after that is questionable or on the bubble." Also safe is the Pontiac G8, Jim Hopson, manager of Pontiac Communications, told Inside Line. "There's no hold on the G8," said Hopson. "G8 production starts in October and the first units will be available after the first of the year." Still on the bubble are future Camaro derivatives, including a big Impala sedan.

Trouble is that rear-wheel-drive cars are bigger, heavier and thirstier than front-wheel-drive vehicles. Lutz notes that the corporation has yet to figure out "how to get 30 percent better mileage from" RWD cars.

Full article at link.
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#170424 - 04/12/07 04:15 PM Re: No G8 after all?!?!?!?!?!?
Richard Candelario Offline
Member
Registered: 12/15/05
Posts: 5286
its still too bad the Grand Prix nameplate is going away...
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98 L36/MM5
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#170425 - 04/12/07 04:21 PM Re: No G8 after all?!?!?!?!?!?
1997grandprixgtpsaginawmi Offline
Member
Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 522
Loc: Saginaw MI
Ok after having meterology, geology, advanced meteorology, and various other classes dealing with history I am really getting sick of those geeks talking about global warming and how its going to get worse and worse and worse. I dont want to argue with anyone on here, But seriously for all you peeps that actually believe that global warming is happening becuase of what us humans have been doin. Go pull yourself out a text book and read about the history of it. Youll find out that global warming has been going on for millions of years even back when the dinosaurs were walking on the earth. There is a great extinction each time the oceans rise and fall. But man o man now they are going to stop making fast cars all because some dork says its all becuse of our cars and the Co2 they release give me an Fing break. there is this guy coming to my college in 2 weeks to talk about global warming. My professor who is very intelligent is basically going to explain to him, Gore, and any other morons out there that we the people did not creat global warming that it is natural. But sorry if I rambled on people this stuff just really irritates me.
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#170426 - 04/12/07 05:33 PM Re: No G8 after all?!?!?!?!?!?
RooK Offline
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Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 5158
Loc: Southern KY
Co2 would be less of a problem if they'd stop cutting down trees... or be forced to replant one each time they do.

I agree that global warming is natural, but I also believe that we have assisted in accelerating it to some degree.
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'00 GP SE (L67 Swap, XP, Headers, 3.25")
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#170427 - 04/12/07 06:46 PM Re: No G8 after all?!?!?!?!?!?
ordonez1307 Offline
Member
Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 8901
Loc: Bradenton, FL
Quote:
Originally posted by 1997grandprixgtpsaginawmi:
Ok after having meterology, geology, advanced meteorology, and various other classes dealing with history I am really getting sick of those geeks talking about global warming and how its going to get worse and worse and worse. I dont want to argue with anyone on here, But seriously for all you peeps that actually believe that global warming is happening becuase of what us humans have been doin. Go pull yourself out a text book and read about the history of it. Youll find out that global warming has been going on for millions of years even back when the dinosaurs were walking on the earth. There is a great extinction each time the oceans rise and fall. But man o man now they are going to stop making fast cars all because some dork says its all becuse of our cars and the Co2 they release give me an Fing break. there is this guy coming to my college in 2 weeks to talk about global warming. My professor who is very intelligent is basically going to explain to him, Gore, and any other morons out there that we the people did not creat global warming that it is natural. But sorry if I rambled on people this stuff just really irritates me.
wtf?... i thought this was about a G8
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#170428 - 04/12/07 09:06 PM Re: No G8 after all?!?!?!?!?!?
drummerboy1307 Offline
Member
Registered: 04/30/06
Posts: 3201
Loc: Groton, CT
Quote:
Originally posted by TastyBake:
Make it smaller, more efficient, perhaps less power. If they want more power? Supercharger.
The GTP gets reasonable gas mileage but nowhere near 34 mpg. I average 15-16, and many people average 18-22. The supercharger doesn't add power but retain gas mileage, the gearing ratio in GTPs is low to help assist in lower RPMs and less fuel usage.

I have the stock 329s in my car, and on the GT engine which makes less power they are great, but with the supercharger on top as well, it throws my fuel economy out the window.
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#170429 - 04/13/07 01:40 AM Re: No G8 after all?!?!?!?!?!?
Dementeddj Offline
Member
Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 712
Loc: Kansas (Redneck Country)
hey drummerboy, just my thoughts,but aren't those numbers kinda low? my 98 with 104K on the clock stock suspension also still averages 26-29 on the HWY loaded with all my DJing equipment in the car. I just figured that most of the GP were getting at least close to that when driven reasonably.

Herc, I never saw that they said the G8 is safe (must have missed it), only that the only one that is safe is the Camaro, and the midsize pontiac that they mentioned is unsure... if the G8 is safe it is a very good thing, though
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98 GTP GMPP handling kit, HomemadeFWI, MSD coils, Taylor wires, 180 drilled tstat, TR6IX plugs, Intense STD PCM, JimmyC DP, Thrasher shift kit (mild setting), AGX/Intrigue spring setup, drilled/slotted rotors with Hawk HPS pads. Hopefully more to come
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#170430 - 04/13/07 08:32 AM Re: No G8 after all?!?!?!?!?!?
HercMan(Rob) Offline
Member
Registered: 09/12/03
Posts: 14035
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Drummer boy when I drove my GTP across country I averaged 34 mpg. And now with 95k on the clock between towns on the highway in the hills I'm getting 28 mpg. And that's with my open cone intake and ZZP PCM.
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#170431 - 04/13/07 09:49 AM Re: No G8 after all?!?!?!?!?!?
ThunderBat Offline
Member
Registered: 03/11/04
Posts: 5176
Loc: Virginia
I find it kind of crazy that GM will hum and haw about building RWD cars but yet they still advertise the heck out of full sized trucks and SUVs. As with any performance car they have always sold more lower trim models anyway. I havent looked at the numbers split but you see way more SE and GT models than GTPs. In the same vein I'm sure there will be many more V6 models than V8s.

I wont get deep into the discussion of global warming other than to say that I do think we as a race have helped the problem along. The other side of the coin is that if the government hadnt mandated standards for automakers they never would have done things on their own. All the automakers have gone kicking and screaming into every mandate that has ever been passed. Better fuel economy that we enjoy now along with safety features had to all be rammed down the automakers throats. I know that I for one am not complaining that the car I have now has more performance and gets better fuel economy than any other car I have owned.
I think Bob Lutz laying all this on CAFE standards is a load of crap. Global warming or no, oil is a finite resource that we depend on other countries for. We enjoy lower fuel prices here than anywhere else in the world which I think we abuse to a certain degree. Gas isnt going to get any cheaper and it isnt gonna stay where it is either. The rest of the globe is already facing this and so will we sooner or later. I dont like it any better than any of you but it is a reality. Gas prices killed the monster V8 musclecars of old and it will probably do it again.
All I know is that I see an awful lot of full size V8 trucks and SUVs being touted as "family" vehicles and GM put all their eggs in that basket long ago. I dont hear Bob Lutz complaining about building those vehicles. I dont hear any claims threating to kill off the GMC division or even HUMMER for that matter. (which I wouldnt miss).

Cars like the GTP came about in an effort to find performance and economy. Six liter supercharged V8s were never the answer anyway. Even if they dont build the RWD platform what will they build? Continue on with the same Impala FWD?...while people go out and buy other cars that are more creative?...I dont see where not building the G8 will make or break GM. How long ave they been building the RWD V6 Caddy CTS?...that doesnt seem to have hurt them so badly.
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#170432 - 04/13/07 10:58 AM Re: No G8 after all?!?!?!?!?!?
HercMan(Rob) Offline
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Registered: 09/12/03
Posts: 14035
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
The thing I hate the most about people raving about global warming is blaming vehicle emissions. What about all the coal burning power plants, factories and on and on. There is way more to it then just autos.

Remember there is countless other people around the globe that do just as much if not more harm then our vehicles.

One example Japan uses incinerators for trash disposal you can't tell me that's not hurting. There was one right outside the base I go to in Japan and when the wind is blowing everyone downwind must stay indoors for health reasons. So don't tell me my gas hog truck is any worse.
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