Something up. After taking the rear calipers off yesterday to paint, all the brake fluid pretty much drained out. I put them bake on, bleed the brakes, and refilled the reservoir. I noticed yesterday in the driveway they were quite sponge like. After doing the fronts today, let the caliper on, I bleed all again and refilled more. Now I was going to a drive, and before I left my street I couldn't stop the car. What did I do? Has to do something with the rear lines to the rear calipers I believe.

So I jacked the car up again. I took calipers off by its two bolts. I pushed in the brakes and the pads touch, therefore the piston is working. However, I am not sure if I assembled this part correctly. There is a copper like washer I put on the inside of the brake line, on the bolt. Not sure if it goes there or near the head side of the bolt. And I also am not sure if the brake line is supposed to go this way on the caliper or be flipped 180*. I tried 180* when I installed and it didn't want to go so I think this is the right direction. Now that washer could be screwing things up.

Did you bleed the calipers furthest from the master cyclinder first.(RR first, LR, RF, LF) If not, you might still have air in the lines.

Yeah did that twice.

I'm trying to think, I haven't done anything with the calipers on the GP yet, but i'm thinking there might be some kind of o-ring when taking off the calipers (where the line connects to the caliper) on some cars, I might be wrong though.

There is a metal ring, I did put that back on though. Just slides over the bolt threads.

IDK then. Maybe have someone look at the calipers while you pump the brakes and look for leaks. I can't image you damaging the brake lines that easy unless they are rusted. Maybe the master cyclinder is locked-up or something

You didn't accidently let the brake resevoir empty while bleeding the brakes did you.

No, but it was empty when I took the rear calipers off.

Huh, I would try bleeding them again, and see what happens. Might have to invest into some speed bleeders. haha

Any help?
So I looked at the front brake line and it looks the same. I just not 100% that the washer is in the right spot. But when I took it off that I tried to make sure where that washer went.

When I turn the key to accessory the brakes are firm. Once I start the car up and push the brake in, it goes to the floor without resistance.

There should be two copper washers. One goes under the block, one goes under the bolt. They're there to prevent leaks. If you don't see any leaks, they're fine. If it's spongy, you've still got air in the system. When I removed my master cylinder, I went through half a quart bleeding the brakes. If you drain a caliper, you'll probably need to use more... calipers can retain a lot of air in the cavity behind in piston. You might want to let someone tap the caliper with something while it's being bled, to get any stuck air out.

The only other thing I can think of, is gunk from the reservoir has somehow got in the lines, maybe even ABS module, and blocked something. But if fluid comes out when you bleed it, it should be fine. Your issue is really weird.

Alright, thanks Rook. I figured you would help chime in. I bled the back decent. I may try the front again.
I tried it again. I just don't get how I got pressue on the brake when car not on or car is in key on, but no pressure when I have the car running. If I know what's wrong I can fix it. I just don't know what is wrong here.

I think I remember seeing that the ABS module will bleed itself after a few starts. Perhaps it bled itself after you started the car and introduced air back into the rear lines? Just a random thought.

Hmm...interesting. I did notice brake fluid this morning near there and on the ground, transmissino, and what not. I may try to get a big bottle and do a large bleed session this afternoon, then if that doesn't work, take it to the mechanic some how.

"When I turn the key to accessory the brakes are firm. Once I start the car up and push the brake in, it goes to the floor without resistance."

That would be your vacuum booster (The amount of pressure required to stop a car is excessive so cars have a vacuum asisted booster to help you stop the car..its like having a hydraulic jack compared to a sissor jack..that much easier)

Those copper washers are called "crush" washers and 90% of the time are a one time use deal. Once you "crush" them on to the caliper, they mesh to the contours of the surface, trying to reuse them can result in brake failure. If you resued them, you really should get some new ones (very cheap at the parts store).

99.9% sure you have auir in your system though. You need to open all bleeders (with containers under each caliper to collect runoff fluid) and just keep the master cylinder full of brake (dot 3) fluid for a bit.

best way is to have a friend in the car as you go to each wheel (general rule is to start with furthest wheel from the master cylinder), have that person gently push down on the brake pedal as you open the bleeder (do not have them push all the way to the floor or you may ruin a seal in the master cylinder, have them push to 75% of the way down), then you close the bleeder, the person in the car lets up on the pedal, repeat a few times, watching the master cylinder to make sure you are always at least 1/2 full..go to each wheel and repeat, within a 1 or 2 passes of all wheels you should have a killer pedal, if not, you have a leak somewhere (and you will know if this is the case as you are bleeding each wheel).

I have installed probably 3000 sets of brakes in my life and have never had to bleed the ABS..never...so don't go loosening those bleeders, that may cause you a TON of problems and you willbe at the dealer going "uhmmm...."

Chunkee: his issue is he took the rear calipers off the car to paint them.

It sounds like there's either a leak or more air in the system. If you introduced air at the master cylinder then it can take a long time to get it to come out at the caliper. Just the nature of the beast.

I'm going to say the caliper still needs bled. But if you reused the crush washers I'd pick up some new ones and start over.

It's very difficult to get all the air out of the caliper.

My guess for good pressure at first then bleed off is because the brake bias is sending a good portion of the pressure up front and once you put a demand on the system the fluid is routed out back to where the air is.

I have been using the Valvoline Synthetic brake fluid. Is this alright to use? Says on the bottle surpasses dot 3 and dot 4 and is compatable with all brake fluids.

I would hate for you to give me wrong information 20gtp02, since I recently asked you a brake question, and you responded with telling me to switch to synthetic! .........

HAHAHA! I just asked the guy to make sure at the auto parts store, and he said it is good to go!

I'm stumped. I just drip bled all four at the same time. Like 20 minutes. Then I bled all four with a friend at once. Then I did the rr, lr, rf, lf in order and still no resistance on the pedal.

Huhh?

Ok get yourself one of those one person vacuum brake bleeders at the parts store ($10 iirc)and a big bottle of brake fluid and do it again. The only other thing it could be is the master cylinder but I highly doubt it. The timing is to coincedental.

Alrighty, I have a feeling you're missing something here. So, here's my how-to on brake bleeding...

1) Enlist the help of a friend.
2) Pop the hood and take the cap off the Master Cylinder.
3) Jack up the rear of the car and support with jack stands.
4) Remove both rear wheels to provide easier access to the calipers.
5) Starting on the Rear Passenger side, put a wrench on the bleed screw and then attach the bleed hose to the screw. Make sure to hold the tube such that it is vertical from the bleed screw for 2-3" before bending into the catch container.
6) Have friend pump up the brake peddle 5-6 times and then hold it down.
7) Loosen the bleed screw to relieve the pressure in the line and let air out of the system.
8) Repeat until no more air is coming out of the line.
9) Repeat steps 5-8 for the Driver's Rear side.
10) Lower the car and repeat the above except for the front.


Now I have to head off to a meeting, but I hope this is enough.

Yeah what Rook and Chunkee said.

My brakes weren't that difficult, so I don't know what could be up.

I went to the store and purchased brand new crush washers though. Two per caliper like Rook said.

Maybe only having one washer is allowing air back into the lines? I have no idea.

You put the calipers on in the right position right? The bleeder valve should be as close to the top of the caliper as possible, since the air inside will rise to the top.

Any fluid leaks at all? If not, it's gotta just be air in the system that needs to be bled out. If there is a leak, then I think air might be getting in.

If you still do not have a pedal after bleeding, and your sure there is no more air in the system, the last thing to verify is that the master cylinder isn't bad.

To do this you will need 4 clamps (do NOT use vice grips). You need rounded clamps so you do not crush the inside of the hose:

Matco line clamps (top one)
Clamp down each wheel's hose, see if you have a firm pedal..if you do not, you have a bad master cylinder.
If you have a good pedal, hold the pedal down firmly and take each clamp off one at a time until the pedal goes limp. You will then know for a fact which wheel has air and can bleed just that wheel until you get your pedal back.

Thanks for all the advice guys.
I took her up to my mechanic today. He bled them all again and installed the crush washers I purchased. All to gaining maybe 10% in the pedal. Still at like 30% pedal, not good.
I am going back up there in the morning, wednesday, and he is going to power bleed the system. I just need my brakes back.

Does anyone have a picture or know which way the rear calipers go on. I am 99% sure I put them back on the correct sides. I did read about the bleeder valve being in the 12 oclock position for air to escape.
This is how I have the rears. This picture is the passenger rear caliper. Is the bleeder valve in position as everyone else's caliper?
As in, did I put the caliper back on the correct side?

When you pump up the brakes to blead them do you get any pedal pressure at all? If not you may have fudged one of your calipers.Have a friend pump up the brakes and see if your pds are holding at all they should turn freely with no pedal applied .Chico(pops)

I think my freakin calipers are on backwards.
I don't know how, but they are. The bleeder valve is facing down. I painted one caliper at a time and put them on one at a time, so not sure how that would get screwed up.

Maybe your car was built on a Friday or a Monday...

Yep, I think you got them on the wrong side.

The way you have it now, when you try to bleed them, the air is getting trapped in the brakelines because they are the highest point.

You need the bleeder to be up top (12:00 position). The air rises, so it will come out the top of the caliper.

Oh doooood....

You totally put the left side's caliper on the right side of the car.

Bleeder always goes at the top of the caliper.

/Smacks you in the back of the head

Hey, it's ok I made a mistake doing mine too. You gotta mess up to learn sometimes.

It's good news that it's just on the wrong side versus replacing the master cylinder.

You didn't read the other thread yet, did ya UMfan

Ok, it is stupid, but I wasn't the one that put them on wrong. It was like that. I put it on the correct side. I remember bleeding my brakes a few months back and the bleeder valve was facing down.
Anyways, that didn't make a difference swapping them anyways. My mechanic ended up changing out the master cylinder and I now have better brakes than I ever have. I have a nice full system of the synthetic brake fluid too, no more gung!
$165 later, I wish I could of spent that on grills and something else, or towards the 12" brake upgrade. Oh well, I got good brakes now!
And Chunkee, I'll send you an invoice via PayPal for that $1,000 soon!!

Told ya it was the mastercylinder

LMAO!!


"but I wasn't the one that put them on wrong. It was like that"


That is sad, I'll let you off the hook..this time..


Did the mechanic block the lines to test the master cyclinder? That is the only way I would pay, need proof it was in fact the MC. Its easy to blame the MC and do a proper bleeding and not let the customer know (not that I am accusing..)

I find it odd that the MC failed at the same time the calipers were pulled off for painting. But I have seen stranger coincedences.

I've known this dude for 20 yrs (family has).
And they cut me deals all the time!
The MC is from 2002 and all that bleeding I did and pushing it down most likely rumptured it.