But seriously I agree with jaybur. Why do we need cars to have 400+HP, even 300HP , or even a little less than that? Why? Because as Americans(being the key word and no were not the only ones, but now you can def see OUR impact globally) we have had a tradition/heritage for speed and HP. Also, Pride and wanting to be the best among other things.

But now we can't come down to rationalism because of our pride. Don't get me wrong I probably fall into this category along with probably a lot of you guys on this board. And like jaybur said before, "on a car forum it falls upon deaf ears", and we just don't want to hear things like that because of our "wants", not the rational world around us. Defintely things need to change and probably the only way it is going to happen is if times get even worse, then we will HAVE TO apdapt to another lifestyle. It's just basic human/animal adaptation... but it's going to be harsh, really harsh.

So yes let businesses go bankrupt or fold completly. They will eventually come back to adapt to the rationalism, therefore also making every one of us to HAVE TO adapt to the rational/"New way". It's going to happen, this change is inevitable, it will happen, it's going to hurt a lot of people until we have transformed to the rationalism of the world. So move closer to work and stores and grab a pedal bike because we are gonna start at step one, then things will ONLY get better.

/ramble

PS I'm not an enviromentalists either! Probably far from it...

In all honesty letting the big three file for bankruptcy is the quickest way to get them to seriously restructure. I think the only reason the Govt is thinking twice about bailing them out is because unemployment is already so high and the auto industry employs SO many people. The ripple effect down thru the suppliers and the dealer network will dump millions of people in the street not to mention shutting down whole communities...which in turn kill all the supporting small businesses in every one of those towns. I agree that things need to change but there isnt an easy one shot answer. It isnt killing me so bad since I dont have a vehicle in the driveway that doesnt average under 20mpg but the auto industry does use tons of plastics...so a big 3 bankruptcy could shut my place of business down...or at the very least make huge layoff...and I see us as pretty far down the ripple effect...closer to the plants will get really ugly.

The US has been playing catch up in the HP game pretty much since cars were invented.

Ferrari, Porsche, Jaguar, Bugatti, and Rolls Royce. Their legacies speak for themselves.

I wouldn
t compare US companies to those. And Jag? get real. GM alone produces more cars in a day then Ferrari, Bugatti, and Rolls produce in a year combined.

The thing with big power sedans was GMs attempt to compete with the likes of MB, BMW. Just look at the G8. Lutz specifically said it's targeting at the 5 series.

As for trucks and SUVs Profit margins were through the roof. They were selling so good that Toyota, Nissan and Honda had to get into the game now they are paying the same price. Only difference is now Toyota only has something like an average of $41 and hour per employee compared to GM's $70.

Tim your right about lemmings but shouldn't the "free market" dictate what vehicles are made and sold? People don't want small cause they feel "unsafe" Just look at all the "unsafe" remarks about the smart car when in reality passenger safety is rated higher then most full size cars/SUVs.

Bailout no.

I'm all for filling chapter 11 but unfortunately that could be the death nail for the car company that files.

Joe public will see car company X file bankruptcy and will see that as the company closing. They won't buy the cars because they'll be too afraid of not being able to get warrenteee work done/parts etc. Just look at a thread on Clubgp one of the members was asking should he buy a C5 vette if GM is closing cause he was afraid there'd be no parts.

I know my MIL would see a company file bankruptcy and she'll buy from another company for fears there'll be no support.

At this stage your damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Somebody needs to stand up make a decision and run with it.

Everyone wants to be the hero but nobody is willing to take the chance at being the bad guy should things fail.

Congress don't give a crud they just want to be able to say "see told ya so. Arn't I smart."


If anything CAFE has brought this upon us. All the loopholes etc etc. Tim do you know that your PT Cruiser by CAFE definition is classified as a "light truck"?

I think it is messed up that we can't buy a car made by ford in our own country ( I am referring to the fiesta diesel)

it is blamed on the pollution levels not being low enough, but if the vehicle gets 70 MPG how can it be that polluting? a diesel truck getting 16 mpg is OK but not a car that gets 70?

if the fiesta was dubbed a "light truck" I'm sure it would have no issue. but since it is a car, they are going by the "car pollution levels".

It's the particulates that are the problem.

The diesels that are getting 50 state EPA approved are using exotic urea filtration systems. That need serviced every so often. This filtration adds quite the cost to the vehicle.


That Fiesta as is won't meet the standards here and would drive the cost to high for people to even consider. Even with the better mpgs. In the long run it won't help the buyers wallett. Face it that's the number one concern of 85% of the population. I don't know about where you live but here diesel is a dollar more a gallon and even at 60 mpg and the added upfront cost the gas burner is more economical to own.

Europe gets away with diesels because many countries tax cars based on displacement. And what better way to get horsepower out of a 1.5L then diesel?

actually the MPG is a big enough difference.

think of it as the fiesta VS a grand prix

and we will do best case scenario for both (like a long 700 mile highway trip).

Grand prix 30 MPG would need 23.33 gallons of fuel to hit 700 miles. X $2.10 a gallon = $47.20

Fiesta gets 70 mpg would need 10 gallons of fuel to hit 700 miles. X $3.10 a gallon = $30.10

that is a $17 difference PER trip. AND a 13.3 GALLON difference.

and it if it was city vs city it would be even more of a difference.

it would be worth it....

now some might say, I'd never be caught dead in one of those ugly cars. well that is partially the reason why we have so many choices of vehicles, And why everything has to be FASTER than the next guy.


think about it. if they made a grand prix that had a top speed of 60 mph and 0-60 was 22 seconds, and got 45 mpg. And right next to it was a regular GTP supercharged with 150mph top speed and a 0-60 of 4.5 seconds. which one do you think you would buy if they were similar in price?

I think anyone of us would be on the GTP in a heartbeat. But that is how the car has been pitched to us ever since "racing" started.

so maybe 1 out of 20 would not choose the GTP If 19 out of 20 chose the high MPG model every time how fast would cars be today?? We probably would not care.

just my opinion....

Even trucks now are stating the "0-60" time.

does your TRUCK really need to be faster than the next guys? Apparently it does these days...

Man, here in Texas, I have trucks try and race me regularly. I had one last night. And what really bugs me is that are just like ricers. They just KEEP LOSING and trying again. They keep trying to ricer flybys, and I see them coming and smoke their ***, 4 or 5 times. So I can see what they put the 0-60 time on trucks...losers. lol

What would the initial cost be to purchase the diesel vs gas? You forgot to add that into the equation.

Aside from the SRT-10 and the SSR the 0-60 is a good tell for towing prowess.

^ I know herc. All I am saying is IF they were available here for a decent price, which won't happen anyway.

Do you get what I am saying though herc ? Trucks are not just trucks anymore. now they have to be FAST too.

anyway, this conversation is almost pointless honestly, nothing is going to change until it HAS to. and now with gas prices down I already see people selling there honda for a jeep, or truck.
as if gas is going to stay this low.

This is alot of what I mean about the whole lemmings thing and part of the reason why the free market gets this country in trouble over and over again. Every time gas takes a dip (and its always temporary) people start crying for "bigger is better" and they use excuses like safety to lean on,plus safety is sales ploy used to sell big vehicles to the unassuming. If its all about size for safety then lets all get an M1 Battle tank.
To me safety is about driver training and the bloody cell phone, which has now morphed into the text/internet/music/blow your nose multi-task weapon of death. I never would have thought our society would reach point where it is so gawd-awful important to stay "plugged in" every waking second of the day...and so many seem to think they can do all these things while wielding a two ton SUV down the highway.
I've said this before that our cars are perfect examples of how compromises can be reached...and I think my car is as safe as any truck or SUV...and even more so if there werent so many two ton plus battering rams on the road...being driven by cell phone addicts at 80mph on the interstate.
Which leads me to another of my pet peeves. If you must drive a large vehicle, then dont cry about gas mileage if you insist on driving 20+mph over the limit.

I do remember reading about the light truck rating for the PT, and in many foreign countries it is used as such. (there is guy on the PT message board from Aussie Down Under who has converted his into a camper) I personally think Chrysler blew a big chance by not building the PT panel wagon (I see GM moved on that with the HHR) which will most likey generate some fleet sales for delivery use (I have already seen a few) and in many other countries it would be the norm for such a vehicle to be used.
I love watching Top Gear and I have noticed more than once how the Brits throw barbs at the US for everything having to be BIG...which is one more reason our domestic cars are such slow sellers overseas.
I personally dont think this country will ever get on board with how the rest of the world does things but we could get closer and I think we will have to if we are going to survive.

I have watched this cycle happen several times in my life...gas prices spike and people run to smaller, more efficent cars (usually imports) and as soon as the economy gets better the turn right back the other way. How many times do we cut our own throats before we learn to find the middle ground?...how many times before we learn to choose moderation over excess? The wealthy will always choose excess and the business type will always choose greed and profit above all. I guess I'd like to see John Q Public get smarter than that.

^ I am on craigslist quite a bit. And I like to browse the vehicle section. and when gas is high you see ads like "will trade 98 Chevy 2500 for honda accord or other good mpg vehicle"

then gas drops, and it reverses again, "will trade honda accord for Chevy 2500"

if you do not haul things very often then why buy a truck? or buy an old truck to use for those times, and park it the rest of the time.

Many people like to buy a full size truck, just to lift it and put big mud tires on it, and then maybe 1/8 of those guys actually drive it off the pavement, so they are REALLY hurting MPG.

many people do not have the money to "properly" lift a truck and put big tires on it. the right way would be to re-gear to match the larger tires, but that is pretty expensive itself. on top of the $3,000 wheels and tires, and $1400 lift kit you just had installed at the tire shop.
(all that on top of you FIRST truck payment)

and those mud tires generally have a very low tread wear number, so they will last maybe 20,000 on the highway. Vs up to around 60-80,000 for a good street tire.

FYI now is the PERFECT time to scoop up an economy car for later down the road.

grand prix's do ok on the highway, but if you get 18ish city, then that is what our 4runner gets in the city.... hardly an economy cruiser!


But I agreet Tbat, no change anytime soon.

there are plenty of wealthy elderly people in this city, and they drive the big spendy SUV's and they seem to have opted for the "no signal light" option, as they don't seem to use them.
also they seem to be privileged enough to not have to obey the stop signs, they just roll through them. all while chatting on a cell phone and drinking a starbucks coffee, 3RD thing on their mind is actually driving.

well, looks like bush gets to step up and be the hero of the day by giving the big 3 billions of our money.

I hope chrysler does the right thing and comes out with 1 more Hemi powered vehicle, maybe a hemi pt cruiser??

chrysler is a joke, and need to be let go in my opinion.

so in 3 months when they need billions more, I wonder how it will play out?......

this bailout is like putting a band aid on a severed limb. oh well, at least the big shots can take a few more "pre-planned" business trips to Tahiti or something.

I feel for the employees making the cars, but the greedy people running the business's need to be taught a lesson.

oh well, its just billions more that my kids grandchildren will pay inherit. The gray haired business owners are not too concerned....

Its not a "bail out" in the way it has been defined this year. Its a loan that they will have to pay back (which if they fail, won't be paid back). Throwing around 700B to banks and 1000B for a stimulus plan... the 14B loan is nothing; although a huge amount of jobs is on the line.

American automakers just can't compete with the foreign companies pumping out the same thing cheaper. Bobby pointed out the labor cost difference. That is huge. Unions had their time, and now they're starting to hurt. They do a lot of good, but the bad outweighs the good.

My company layed off a lot of good factory workers recently. Union "first-in first-out" policy meant that the old timers -- who fart around all day, cause trouble, and refuse to change their ways -- kept their jobs, and the generally more hardworking newer people got canned. And then you have the labor costs. And then you have Obama taking away secret-ballot voting rights for union votes. Whats next? Why are we punshing companies for existing in the USA? Our businesses will soonbe the highest taxed in all of the world (we're in 2nd now), not to mention the labor expense.