THIS IS EXTREAMLY LONG BUT REALLY DESPRITE FOR SOMEONE WHO IS VERY SERIOUS ABOUT GRAND PRIX PERFORMANCE TO HELP ME exaust has a gagling/rattle noise and getting worse, on take off, and when i accelerate it almost seems like it doesent downshift and it bogg's down and gargle is loud sounds like from exaust i have already bought a dhp pcm second hand but updated, but have not installed it yet, i had mentioned before i bough some parts from PFYC, a 3.4 pully and a 3.2 pully just to have maybe change in the future, im going with the 3.4 for now, gator back v-belt's, speedbuilt fenderwell intake, which is already installed, and a 180 degree thermostate. and im about to purchase the straight pipe to replace the u-bend, and some coolant, give er a nice coolant flush, i have already replaced fuel filter, and pump, ignition coil, two plug wires, and air intake. BUT!, i heard that if you add an air intake, new pcm, thermostate, and what ever else, that it could make my problem even worst, but then again what is the problem, could be 100 different things, i stayed up till 3am this morning doing research trying to figure out what it could be, with the symptoms i have, this is a list of all the possibilities, here they are,

TOURQE CONVERTER
SPARK PLUGS (ive already changed)
FUEL INJECTION SYSTEM ADJUSTMENT
FUEL FILTER (ive already changed)
FAULTY SPARK PLUG WIRES
INTAKE MANIFOLD AIR LEAK
VACUMM LEAK
DEFECTIVE/NOT FUNCTIONING RIGHT ECM
FAULTY COILS (could be did change one when i first bought it last fall, coil tower was rusted)
BRAKES BINDING (everytime i start the car and put it in gear and start moving there is always a quick rubbing sound in the front like when anti-locks activated the sound it makes it the same is this normal?)
TRANNY FLUID LEVEL INCORRECT (well in the tank its about an inch over the top line and stays there, so i think! and the dip stick is fine, smells fine, looks fine i replaced the tranny twice in my 97 gtp so i know what to look for and listen for so i dont think its my tranny, this is why i need to see if it is the TC cuz if it is then it will frig my tranny right?)
LOW OR UNEVEN CYLINDER COMPRESSION PRESSURE
CARBON IN COMBUSTION CHAMBERS
DAMAGED IGNITION COMPONENTS
THROTTLE VALVE (is what i thought it was from the start)
SHIFT LINKAGE
TRANSAKLE MOUNT
EXAUST LEAK/NOT SEALED

To better describe the reason im so serious, i drove 6 hour to buy this grand prix, dont make em like these models anymore, and at 54,000kms, prior owners were an older couple from kansas parked it in their garage, perfect condition, when i seen the for sale add i jumped on it, 2000 grand prix gtp 4 door fully loaded, but brown colour but that ok im painting it white. who cares it only had 54,000kms right? so now after 9 monthes of owning my dream car, at 87,000kms why am i having to replace all the parts i metioned earlier, im just mind boggled, i dont know anymore, ive read so much, heard so many opinions, i ve had enough and i want to get to the bottom of this stupid problem and finally get to enjoy my georgeous GTP. so this is why i came here, people seem just as obsessed with Grand Prix's as i am, so....here it is, i dont know where else to go, ive tried talking with people on some other Grand Prix chat site and they were total idiots who dont reolize how great and unique and fun this car really is. its Pontiac's leading car for some reason right? Best car ever, but high high maintnance. worth every penny!

see now guys, this is what im talking about, now you see how crazy this is driving me, like im obsessed with this car, all my money is in this car, i know i said too much but i really really need help, i know what everything is that i metioned and how to fix it, but which one is it? if i can fix this problem my gp would be perfect. its getting worst everyday, cant take it to the dealer cuz they frig ya, anyways if someone out there really wants to help me with this, it is very important to me, and im adding my mods next week so i need answers, BADLY! ill even pay for help at this point, all ive ever wanted was my grand prix growing up and now i have my second GP but its just not working out for me. ok ill shut up now, im just looking for some help. Thanks for taking the time to read this who ever did. and NO im NOT crazy! LOL

Feel free to e-mail me if you are willing to take the time to help a rookie,
grahamdavis@sympatico.ca

What happens if you get on it? Does it take 1st gear all the way out to about 5800RPMS or so? Does it shift into 2nd without trouble? (slipping, extra hard, extra soft, etc) If you can rev out to 5800 or so, then you probably don't have a clogged cat.

By the sound of it, to me, at worst you have an exhaust leak which *might* be throwing off an O2 sensor, or you just have an exhaust clamp coming loose on a worn exhaust. The stock PCM programming isn't exactly the best. In my mom's SE, the torque convert likes to lock up at seemingly the oddest times to me. It can cause it to bog...then I have to give it a decent bit of gas sometimes to come out. Really it doesn't sound too bad.

Just take a step back, too much research on what could be a simple problem (or not even one) can scare anyone. I wouldn't worry about it that much.

Jesse

thats what people said about my 97 gtp, i knew it was the tranny and people said that same thing, 3000.00 bucks later i sold it the screwed up tranny screwed up more in the car, so im just protecting my investment i guess you could say, bad luck is no stranger to me, lol, it shifts beautifuly when i accel hard, but say im going about 30 or 40kms, (canada) and then press the gas the rpm drops and comes back up and sometimes drops again, then she kicks in but it gargles, and its getting worst. but its got alot of pick up and go, if i punch it, she fly's like crazy and shifts great, its like i always have to really punch the gas to avoid the bogg down and gargling sound, noone can really seem to pin point the problem

So how long ago did you install the Intake? Did you disconnect the negative terminal on the battery for 20 mins after you installed the intake? I didn't at first, and I was driving a civic for awhile. Then I did it and car was good to go.

nope, dident say to do that, should i have

Yes! The PCM has to relearn that greater airflow. I ran at half power when I added an open 9" kn without doing the neg terminal. And it sounded like crap. Just disconnect that negative (black) terminal for 30 minutes, and then hook back up and see what you get.

holy s***, that could just be the answer to my problem, thanks alot bud, so just disconnect for 30 and thats it?

Yup. If you want disconnect it overnight, just remember in the morning you have to hook it back up before you go anywhere. Damn, you're in Canada! That's far from me, lol..1,400 miles.

yup way way up here, people livin in igloo's and everything, lol joke, people think can is so far and cold all the time its funny, anyways,ok BUT!i had this problem before the intake, not as bad though, now its getting worse, but ill try what you said, i hope you are right, what would be the symptoms of a TC bummed out?, im hooked on this TC thing since ive been told about it, cuz exactly what is happening to me is the sigh of TC, no?

Have you or do you know if its had a filter/fluid change on the tranny? I don't know much about TC and I hope not to, best of luck for my tranny!, but changing the fluid/filter may give some life back to your tranny.

yup, and only the best, and added alittle lucas for the first time seemed to make a diff at first, but now, major power loss, what about TV cable
or throttle body
know anything aboutthat?

TV cable? Throttle body, yeah I ported my stock throttle body.

Hey I don't mean to barge in on this but what you have described is perfectly normal. On my old GTP, an '01, whenever I put the car in drive and started moving, the ABS pump would turn on as a "check" to make sure its working properly. (I'm 99% sure). So don't ever worry about that.

I can't help you on anything else, just thought I'd answer that question. Good luck to you though, I really hope everything works out for you.

WOW MAN YOU GUYS ARE GREAT ON HERE OTHER GP SITES THE GUYS ARE A** H****, THANKS BUD, DAMIT YOU'RE IN DALLAS, NOONE UP HERE IN ESKIMO LAND WITH ME? LOL, CAN SUCKS

There are a few Canadians on ths site I'm a transplanted Can. myself living Texas from Thunder-Bay Ont. Chico.

you guys have to read how bad my day was, its long again, but everythingi went so wrong that you have to read it, worst day ever, started the day with a low tire because there is a nail in it, then i get to work and disconnected my neg cable from my battery, hoping that it would be one of the solutions to my problem, i installed a speedbuilt fenderwell intake about 2 weeks ago, but what i dident know was that you had to re-learn your pcm after installing the intake, to do this i was told to disconnect the neg cable for 30 min then it should resat the pcm, WELL! ok so i popped the hood, disconnected the cable, locked all the doors closed the hood, but what i did not mention before, my key has been stuck in the ignition for about a month now, sometimes it would come out, and i cant shift out of park, i have to push my keys into the shift lock release botton beside the shifter to release it, so after i locked all the doors and closed the hood, i dident think right and just grabbed my house keys with the key fob on it, that how ive been getting in and out of my car, so i come back half hour later, then it hits me, S***! no way in, and my cable has been unplugged for like an hour or more, but thats not all, my spare set of keys are in the arm rest inside my car, so ok, get the coat hanger, and start prying the door on top with some tools, then i pryied too hard and bent the top of the door frame and the door, ripped the weather stripping, huge dent above the door and its all scratched too S*** from the coat hanger, WORST CAR TO LEAVE YOUR KEYS IN! the little unlock at the handle is so hard to flick back with a hanger, finally about close too 2 hours we get in, so i go to attach the neg cable back on, and zap, wasent expecting that, finally get it screwed in, i start the car, WONT START, try again, WONT START, third time i could hear something clicking under the hood when i turned to key to the on position, so i turned it back thinking it was maybe an electrical surge or something i dont know, so ok i wait, then i turn the key to on position again and it did it again, so i decided to start it to see what would happen, it started up, stumbled then it was ok, after i get home i open the hood and ask my partner to turn the key to on as i listened, found out it was coming from around the cruize control unit and also on the other side at the fuse relay box, like really quick clicking sounds, sounded like something getting electricuted. and to top it all off, my problem is even worst, really garling now, and its sharper too. and i dident even see any diff with the performance from the intake, so all that for nothing. but i dont think i was done right, i think when i reconnected the cable i was supposed to go through some kind of reseting steps, like leaving the key in the on positon for 15 min, then turn off, then wait, then repeat, something like that, anyways i dont know, but keep coming with the suggetions guys, i just gotta pick myself up and try again.

Take it to a mechanic.

THATS THE PROBLEM!, my uncles and grandfather do not have the right tools for this kind of problem, cars now a days rely way too much on electronics, and the dealership its over 200 just to diag the problem, its funny there is no trouble code, the car is acting up, dying down, and now today its ticking at the fuse box and somewhere around the cruze, so by time the dealership gets finished screwing me it will cost probley over a grand with parts and labour, so im talking to you guys, i think what i was told to try today, was a good soloution, but there was more to it then just unplug the neg cable and plug it back in, but see what if i put in my new dhp pcm, and i damage something even worst, what do i do? there is so much stuff i posted, which do i try next?

well you said you have all your money in the car, so why not save yourself and take it to the dealer for 200 when you might try all these other things that could add up to thousands just an idea

Just out of curiosity, did you check the battery connections to ensure they are tight? If you can move either cable by hand, that may be the reason your relays are ticking. Sorry to hear you're having so much trouble with your car..

For the key stuck in ignition problem, check for blown fuses (the one marked BTSI comes to mind). Good Luck!

thanks guys ill try that, relay's, is that what it is, they are on both sides of the motor? they just tick like really fast multiple ticks, but its super fast when i turn the key to on, just for a quick second, and the dealer is a 200 or more just for the diag, and you know dealers, they will say it is something else even when they know what it is, they are like that here in canada, i worked at 2 dealerships, i know. but what you say is true, i might end up really damaging my car, but still, anything else that could cause that ticking, are you sure its the relays? and i will check my fuses right now, BTSI....are those the ones in the fuse box under the hood? the big grey ones, i always wanted to know how to check those ones

The BTSI fuse (Brake Transmission Shift Interlock) is located in the fuse box behind your glove box. Open your glove box, pop out the storage box on the right hand side, and you should see it (10 Amp fuse). If the fuse is good, then take your car to someone who can check it out for you, or continue to use the override feature.

override feature? what is that, im sorry im just learning here.

anything else that could cause that ticking, are you sure its the relays?

not sure if im just not understanding or not but have you pinpointed when and where the "gurgling" is coming from.
-with the car in park, does it make the noise when you rev it or when its idling?
-does it come from underneath the car or under the hood?
-if you put the car in nuetral does it make the sound while your sitting still or rolling?

as for the battery cables not being connected all the way - it seems simple but i know my cable can be "pushed" into terminal and will stay there even with out being tightened. i would check that as well.

and for the "reconnect" of the battery you shouldnt have to follow a procedure. simply disconnect the the cable and make sure it isnt touching anything and then reconnect it carefully.

that all being said it might be a good point to take it to a shop or a dealer...we've all come to that conclusion with our current car or another at some point, sometimes you have to give up and just get it fixed.

The shift lock release button beside the shifter, that you mentioned using earlier.

THERE IS NO PERFECT GRAND PRIX UNLESS ITS WHITE, WANT TO TRADE, THAT WHAT I WANTED BUT ALL OF THE white grand prix's at the time either had no leather or sunroof, or the supercharger was sluggish, or high kms, so i settled for a fully loaded gtp but brown, but white paint is coming soon, its a great looking car in white.

anyways, yes the pcm has to go through a case learn afterwards, i want to learn how i can do it someone told me to disconnect my neg cable for 30 min then reconnect it, but all went haywire. did it wrong i think.

and for my problem, its coming from under the car, i think the exaust, either a clogged cat, or maybe a leak holes or seals worn, i dont know, but it gargles like that because of something more serious, like maybe my pcm is out of wack, or the torque converter, it loses power on take off, like the rpm drops then shoots up and then she kicks in and goes, but if i tramp it on take off it doesent lose power it goes like crazy, and shifts perfect, but it still gargles, its like the cat has something flapping around inside it. and when im driving and i accel it dies alittle and gargles again, unless i really floor it, its like its not getting enough pressure or something, and the longer the i drive it like this the worst its getting. i dont know ive been trying to resolve this problem for the last month, and evryone has great suggestions but who's right?

another thing i should mention guys is that in the morning or when the car is cold or cool, it doesnt seem to be as bad, does that help the diag process?

ok guys last time i will bug you, im installing my mods and dhp pcm this weekend, now i have my 180 thermostate, and im flushing my coolant, does a 180 require different coolant, and how much exactly do i buy, im on my way to canadian tire now before i go to the cottage, and then im installing my 3.4 pully with the gator back belts, then the new pcm, is this order backwards, which should i install first, all the mods and then the pcm?

Well, I would figure out the gargling before doing your mods. You need to get the ubend done before anything. When you do the coolant don't put back in DexCool. Put in Peak Global Lifetime. Two of the large container bottles should do. Do the 180 tstat at this time. Then you can do the PCM. But make sure you have the exhaust fixed before all this. And I wouldn't puton the 3.4 with the problems you have especially since you can't scan or don't have a way to scan for KR.

What he said. Get that exhaust checked out. My money's on a clogged cat, but in any event you shouldn't be putting on a 3.4" pulley with no exhaust work.

This order: Exhaust (possible 3" downpipe with hi-flow cat), 180 T-stat, PCM, then lastly pulley.

OK SO, START WITH THE THERMOSTATE, THEN PULLY AND BELTS, THEN THE PCM, I THINK MY PROBLEM IS THE U-BEND LIKE EVERYONE HAS BEEN SAYING, SO ILL DELET THE U-BEND, THEN INSTALL MY MODS, THE MY PCM, SOUND GOOD, AND AFTER I INSTALL MY, (sorry caps) after i install my pcm, i have the vtd on my car so i do that and then i might and might not get the check engine light right, which i probley will, so what do i do, im i going to able to drive to the daler so they can do the case learn?

oh ok thanks
sorry you posted the same time i did, i was answering the last guy who posted

Not good. You repeated in wrong order. If you don't listen we won't bother to help anymore. This is getting quite annoying!!!

no im sorry, i posted my reply the same time

hey guys, finally made it to the cottage, i checked my batt cables, my positive cable was packed with corossion, what would that do? anyways tomorrow morning im installing my mods, wish me luck, and thanks for all the help and advice guys and sorry i was such a pain in the ass, im just nervous, i dont want to screw up my baby! so anyways thanks guys, ill keep you posted on how everything turned out, and someone get back and tell me what symptoms i would get from positive batt cable corroded-(cant spell)

The effects of Auto Battery Terminal Corrosion In layman's terms, the car is harder to start, or may not start at all..

You really should buy a shop manual and get familiar with your car,I do'nt think you're ready for a pulley change and with you skill level you'd probably f- it up and cause yourself more problems,I find your post is giving me a headache so try and consentrate on one issue at a time and please calm down before you have a coronary ,we are here to try and help but if you wo'nt take advise please think about posting this type of post on CGP they will surely eat you alive .Chico.

Oh and next time you start of in caps lock and halfway say oops sorry and change it without editing what you've already written...


Slow down and think about what you are doing. Like I always tell my son when he's working on something "It's not a race" five minutes extra now saves 20 extra minutes later when you have to redo what you messed up.

How are you going to remove the pulley, and install the new one?

What tool are you planning on using.

I'm betting $20 that you're planning on using the wrong pulley puller... any takers?

Either the wrong puller, or worse...a And with no supporting mods in place and no way to scan for KR, I anticipate the final result will be...

Just calm down, dude. We are all here to help you, and the last thing any of us want to do is see you post your next thread as. "My car is making a bad ticking sound". Dont do the pulley, i hope im not too late in telling you this. Your pistons will thank you later.

Take your car to a shop. Find out the problems. Before you have them do anything report back to us and we can tell you what to do and what not to do.

I like that Boom symbol!

http://www.thesmilies.com/

I want to know how to make your own, is there a website for this?

grandtouring ... you must really like caps your name has it and you spell in it everytime ... first off ... stop useing caps

2nd take your car to the shop and get everything fixed so it runs fine again. then you can start doing your mods

do like dummerboy said ... in that order...


And Chico X2

grandtouring you just need to sit back and think about what you are saying ... sit and read what everyone has to say ... and chances are listen to them .. they know what they are talken about

ok guys, ive said before that i was sorry for being such a pain in the ass, and no i dont know what the f*** im doing, but you daont all have to bash me and put me down, way to boost my confidence. Im just trying!, so anyways what do you expect me to do, where do i go to get all my mods installed, the dealership wont do it, and my mechanic i go to is away up here by my cottage. ill go to the dealershiop i guess and ask them to hack into my car and see whats wrong. then i'll install my mods,

It's not that we are bashing you. If you go to another site you will get eatn' up. Here we are trying to help, but you have to follow the advice. You need a special puller to install your 3.4 pulley. Even dealerships don't carry it. You can rent it or buy it or borrow from some club member some how. But you have to scan your car via some sort of scanning device (PowerTuner) and it takes experience to mess with the coding of the PCM. The Tuner is aroudn $400. But I wouldn't suggest buying it since you aren't sure about modding. We are just keeping you from further trouble.

i know a guy with the puller, and ill ask theere is a guy in the city that installs pcm's so ill install my thermostate and pully at my mech's house then ill go to the city to get my pcm installed

Please make sure the puller is designed for removing S/C pulleys and not the standard 3 finger type of puller. The standard 3 finger type of puller will not remove the pulley from the snout. It'll bend the pulley, and even if you were some how able to get the pulley off, without the proper puller to install the pulley, it won't go on. The proper pulley will also press the pulley onto the shaft.

If he really does have the proper puller, I'll be he'll be able to install the PCM also.

what do you mean? are you being sarcastic when you said , "if he has the right pully, he'll be able to install mt pcm" what do you mean

The right puller looks like this: Pulley Boys Using the more common three fingered one is just flirtin' with disaster..
There is this one also: ZZP

No, I'm being serious. I guess this is why we're having such a hard time giving you advise.
You said you were having a friend install the pulley, then drive across town to have another friend install the PCM.
If your first friend has enough common sense to remove and install the pulley THE RIGHT WAY, the swapping out the PCM for you shouldn't be a problem for him. No need to drive all over town.

Here's my next vision... Your friend DOESN'T have the right puller and your pulley is about to get jacked up because he's going to use the wrong puller, a 3 finger style puller, and you'll be superchargerless this afternoon.
I'll go ahead and answer the question I see coming...
Yes, it's okay to drive without a belt on the S/C, you just won't have near as much power.

Good luck to you.

in other words they are telling you DO NOT USE THIS STYLE OF PULLER

http://www.dialmfg.com/photogallery/6100.JPG

so you dont jack up your pully or your supercharger snout

hate that style of puller. Not too long ago, I was helping my buddy pull his harmonic balancer off the crank of his 305 SBC. Sure as crap, we end up skewing his balancer. All that he could do was toss it and get a new one. Poor guy. We then tried the type of puller yall are recommending for the S/C snout. I forgot to mention about the threads in the crank, and get something so the sharp point wouldnt foul the threads. You guessed it: new crank for his SBC. His luck was foul for this rebuild.

Moral of the story: STEER CLEAR OF THE 3-FINGER PULLERS!!!

Actually there is a special puller for harmonic balancers as well.

Again, Herc, you're just so full of good, cheery news today. Are there any smilies out there with a dark cloud over its head? If so, I could really use one right now! I think I need a beer.

Richard, you're in luck:

LMAO!!! THATS THE ONE!!! Whats the code for that?

Hi Richard, here's the site: http://www.thesmilies.com/mad.php Select image code from the drop down, then click on the smilie, and copy and paste the code.

since ive put my mods on everything seams to be better, i had alittle back pressure in my exaust but not enough for the dealership to cover it and give me a new one, so im buying the borla exaust system soon i hope sound good?