#67345 - 06/30/05 04:08 PM
knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 3075
Loc: Cleveland, OH
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so I got my scan gauge today (i'll be writing more about it in the other thread after i get a good handle on it). first thing i did was warm up the car and take it for a spin.
i took it at WOT a few times from say 20-60mph or so. my knock retard is reading ~5.5. I don't know a ton about what's normal, cause i'm slightly new to the scanning thing. i read that you usually lose abour 2 hp per degree of KR... its about 85 degrees outside with moderate humidity. air intake temps were sitting around 92.
my mods are: Intense PCM, wizaired CAI, 180* t-stat. i've been running higher octane gas, but i have 87 in my tank now, so i could scan KR with it.
so i'm wondering if this is good, or bad, or normal. i know the intense messes with that stuff, and i'm tempted to swap my stock pcm back in and scan. maybe its just too frickin hot out.
by the way, the aeroforce scangauge is really cool! looks slick and seems to work nice. more about it later!
thanks, Bill
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#67346 - 06/30/05 04:38 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 3256
Loc: Oregon
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I want to hear more about the amount of knock your aeroforce gauge reads vs. the scan tool. Are they similar?
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#67347 - 06/30/05 04:45 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 3075
Loc: Cleveland, OH
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the "scan-gauge", as they call it, is the only thing i'm using.
almost on empty...i'll probably throw a quarter tank of 94 in there tonight.
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#67348 - 06/30/05 04:53 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 3256
Loc: Oregon
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Oh sorry, I misunderstood and thought you got a scan tool and the gauge.
Canadian GTP had a thread awhile ago where he was troubleshooting his KR (led to his purchase of a downpipe). You might find some things in that topic with regards to normal amounts of KR.
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#67349 - 06/30/05 06:21 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 8078
Loc: Austin, TX
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Zuul, get that 87 octane out of your tank if you're running with a reprogrammed PCM. I know the PCM's for GTP's require premium (92+ octane). The reason you might be getting KR is because of the low octane fuel matched up with reprogrammed settings from the PCM. Put your stock PCM back in and scan it. See if your KR improves. If it does, then your problem is with the low octane fuel in your tank & your PCM.
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Bobby Died 5/1/08, resurrected 5/15/08 ASCD SD hood, 17" Bullitts, Overkill PCM, 3.4" Pulley, NGK TR55IX, K&N 9" cone filter, JimmyC D/P, U-bend removed, Flowmaster 40 series, Hooker big bore tips with resonators, S/B brake lines, drilled/slot rotors, GMPP handling kit, KYB struts, F&R strut supports, HID's, LED's, 2.5" Air Dam, red GTP overlays on custom badges, white rear insert.
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#67350 - 06/30/05 07:26 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 363
Loc: Omaha
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Originally posted by Austin G T P: Zuul, get that 87 octane out of your tank if you're running with a reprogrammed PCM. I know the PCM's for GTP's require premium (92+ octane). The reason you might be getting KR is because of the low octane fuel matched up with reprogrammed settings from the PCM. Put your stock PCM back in and scan it. See if your KR improves. If it does, then your problem is with the low octane fuel in your tank & your PCM. What if the premium they offer around here is 91? Is that considored regular for you?
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'97 Grand Prix GTP Coupe 36k miles Currently - Wizaired CAI, Intense PCM, 3" r/t downpipe, 3.4" QC pulley, Super 40 Flowmasters, NGK TR55XI spark plugs, Taylor 8mm wires, SLP tips, 180 T-Stat, throttle body spacer, exhaust sheild http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/684818
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#67351 - 06/30/05 07:51 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 8078
Loc: Austin, TX
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I get 93 in Austin. I think most of TX gets 92.
_________________________
Bobby Died 5/1/08, resurrected 5/15/08 ASCD SD hood, 17" Bullitts, Overkill PCM, 3.4" Pulley, NGK TR55IX, K&N 9" cone filter, JimmyC D/P, U-bend removed, Flowmaster 40 series, Hooker big bore tips with resonators, S/B brake lines, drilled/slot rotors, GMPP handling kit, KYB struts, F&R strut supports, HID's, LED's, 2.5" Air Dam, red GTP overlays on custom badges, white rear insert.
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#67353 - 06/30/05 08:34 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 94
Loc: Virginia
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91 is premium around here usually. I use the "Ultra" 93 though for ~ $0.05/gal more since I don't want to mix gas and some stations here use 93 as premium with no 91. Some of the Sunoco stations here offer 94 for ~ $0.20/gal more than 91 too, but it's not worth it.
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#67356 - 06/30/05 10:01 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 3075
Loc: Cleveland, OH
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hey guys thanks... i usually run 91 or 93, i just threw a quarter tank of 87 in to check the KR. we have 87,89,91,93,94 in the area. 94 is usually 30-35 cents more than 89. we'll have to see how things go with 91 now. thanks again, bill
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#67357 - 06/30/05 10:12 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Member
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Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 8078
Loc: Austin, TX
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I wish I could get 94 here. I'd gladly pay the extra money for it.
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Bobby Died 5/1/08, resurrected 5/15/08 ASCD SD hood, 17" Bullitts, Overkill PCM, 3.4" Pulley, NGK TR55IX, K&N 9" cone filter, JimmyC D/P, U-bend removed, Flowmaster 40 series, Hooker big bore tips with resonators, S/B brake lines, drilled/slot rotors, GMPP handling kit, KYB struts, F&R strut supports, HID's, LED's, 2.5" Air Dam, red GTP overlays on custom badges, white rear insert.
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#67359 - 07/01/05 10:24 AM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 1563
Loc: Ohio
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Originally posted by ThunderBat: my car is mostly stock and I'll never put 87 in it...the cleaner that engine burns (read that more efficent) the longer its going to run without giving you problems...you can skimp when you go to the pump but it saves you nothing...more KR will mean poor mileage and less power...so you'll just use the cheap stuff faster...my car never gets anything less than 89 and if I modded it more it will move up to the premium stuff. Actually, if you don't need higher octane and experience no KR, there is no need for it. Higher octane is just for reducing KR. Knock occurs when the gas explodes too soon during a piston compression. Once you get passed the point where the gas explodes correctly during a compression, anything more does no good. Also, 93 contains just as much detergents as 87. “But the advertising says Super gives me really clean gas” Marketing strategy so you can buy the more expensive gas. Noticed they never advertise 93 contains more detergents than the lower 87. Thunderbat: If you have a mostly stock GT, you are just wasting your money by getting Super or racing fuel. It drives different because the higher octane explodes differently. Don’t believe me? Have someone put gas in your car for three times. Don’t let them tell you what they put in. You may like the quick responds of 87. You aren’t treating the car w/ Plus or Super. You can get a 87 and replace the fuel filter more often. Zuul: Now, you do need it because the reprogrammed PCM changed the ignition timing in the car. The web site where you got the reprogrammed PCM probably mentions this.
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[GONE] GenV GTP engine, 12" Brakes, CAI, 3" DP, HighFlo Cat, 180 T-Stat, Aeroforce Gauge, Front STB, Stinger Fiberglass hood, Reflective Graphics.
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#67360 - 07/01/05 04:27 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 2481
Loc: Franklin, MA
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There's no difference in the detergents in regular or premium. It can actually hurt the engine if you use a higher octane than the car requires. High octane is NOT better gas, it simply has more chemicals that resist explosion.
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#67361 - 07/02/05 12:03 AM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 1563
Loc: Ohio
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[GONE] GenV GTP engine, 12" Brakes, CAI, 3" DP, HighFlo Cat, 180 T-Stat, Aeroforce Gauge, Front STB, Stinger Fiberglass hood, Reflective Graphics.
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#67362 - 07/02/05 12:30 AM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 363
Loc: Omaha
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Thats way more than I ever wanted to know about octane. Interesting though.
_________________________
'97 Grand Prix GTP Coupe 36k miles Currently - Wizaired CAI, Intense PCM, 3" r/t downpipe, 3.4" QC pulley, Super 40 Flowmasters, NGK TR55XI spark plugs, Taylor 8mm wires, SLP tips, 180 T-Stat, throttle body spacer, exhaust sheild http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/684818
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#67363 - 07/02/05 01:18 AM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Member
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Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 3075
Loc: Cleveland, OH
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well i ran her as dry as i could and filled up with some 93. drove for 10 minutes, and checked KR at WOT and got 5-6 degrees. i'm going to assume that the computer just needs to learn the gas or something? i'll give it some more time. -bill
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#67364 - 07/02/05 04:12 AM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Member
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Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 1563
Loc: Ohio
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Also, if you replaced the PCM with a reprogrammed one, you have to do a CASE learn so the PCM knows where the crankshaft is positioned.
If you just had it reprogrammed, then you don't need to do this.
Yea, the computer will need a few miles to get used to the new octane. Check it after a few more days. If you are still getting knock, you probably want to upgrade the exhaust to free up some back pressure.
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[GONE] GenV GTP engine, 12" Brakes, CAI, 3" DP, HighFlo Cat, 180 T-Stat, Aeroforce Gauge, Front STB, Stinger Fiberglass hood, Reflective Graphics.
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#67365 - 07/02/05 12:16 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Member
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Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 3075
Loc: Cleveland, OH
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still getting 5.8 degrees at wot on the way home from work this afternoon. what worries me is that the change from 87 to 93 didn't change ANYTHING yet. waiting patiently....
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#67366 - 07/02/05 02:51 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 1563
Loc: Ohio
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Did you have the U bend replaced? Won't help much but it may take it down a degree.
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[GONE] GenV GTP engine, 12" Brakes, CAI, 3" DP, HighFlo Cat, 180 T-Stat, Aeroforce Gauge, Front STB, Stinger Fiberglass hood, Reflective Graphics.
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#67367 - 07/02/05 03:48 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Member
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Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 8078
Loc: Austin, TX
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Put the stock PCM back in and see what kind of KR you read.
_________________________
Bobby Died 5/1/08, resurrected 5/15/08 ASCD SD hood, 17" Bullitts, Overkill PCM, 3.4" Pulley, NGK TR55IX, K&N 9" cone filter, JimmyC D/P, U-bend removed, Flowmaster 40 series, Hooker big bore tips with resonators, S/B brake lines, drilled/slot rotors, GMPP handling kit, KYB struts, F&R strut supports, HID's, LED's, 2.5" Air Dam, red GTP overlays on custom badges, white rear insert.
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#67369 - 07/09/05 10:48 AM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Member
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Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 3075
Loc: Cleveland, OH
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well after 8 days of running 93ish, it didn't help... its actually worse. now its giving me 6.5 degrees KR! probly throw the stock pcm in after an upcoming trip (not me driving). anyhow, that doesn't seem like a solution...i like my intense!
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#67370 - 07/14/05 02:40 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Member
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Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 1563
Loc: Ohio
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Any update on this? I am questioning the AeroForce reading.
See if someone else has a scan tool. Surprised to see a PCM do THIS to a car.
Plus if you put in super and you are getting more, then there is something wrong with the car itself such as plugs, fuel filter, dirty throttle, e.t.c.
Downpipe may help.
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[GONE] GenV GTP engine, 12" Brakes, CAI, 3" DP, HighFlo Cat, 180 T-Stat, Aeroforce Gauge, Front STB, Stinger Fiberglass hood, Reflective Graphics.
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#67371 - 07/14/05 04:06 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 84
Loc: Omaha, NE
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You lucky asses
There's only ONE station that sells 92...everybody else has 91 .. And it sucks
Somebody said AutoZone or someone will Scan for KR for free??
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COMPETITION CAMSHAFT STAGE 2, 105 lb Valve springs, new Pushrods, new retainers, 4" Fenderwell Intake, 3" DP with High-flow Cat, Borla Cat-Back, 3.2" Pulley, Shift Kit, 160 T-stat, DHP PCM 1.0, Tranny Cooler, Taylor Wires, Colder Plugs
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#67373 - 07/14/05 04:37 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Registered: 09/12/03
Posts: 14035
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
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Originally posted by Kwik Wun: You lucky asses
There's only ONE station that sells 92...everybody else has 91 .. And it sucks
Somebody said AutoZone or someone will Scan for KR for free?? That's because of your altitude. At that elevation 92 is like 94 for us here at sea level.
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#67374 - 07/14/05 06:27 PM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Member
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Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 1563
Loc: Ohio
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Originally posted by HercMan: Originally posted by Kwik Wun: [b] You lucky asses
There's only ONE station that sells 92...everybody else has 91 .. And it sucks
Somebody said AutoZone or someone will Scan for KR for free?? That's because of your altitude. At that elevation 92 is like 94 for us here at sea level. [/b]yup.
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[GONE] GenV GTP engine, 12" Brakes, CAI, 3" DP, HighFlo Cat, 180 T-Stat, Aeroforce Gauge, Front STB, Stinger Fiberglass hood, Reflective Graphics.
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#67375 - 07/16/05 01:43 AM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Member
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Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 3075
Loc: Cleveland, OH
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no update on this yet... i've been on vacation all week. i gotta replace the fuel pump resistor when i get back, ill probly reset the PCM at the same time, and see how it goes from there. any advice on how to treat the car during the 'learning' period? after a few days if theres no change i may swap the intense with the stock pcm to see if thats the culprit or not. ubend is coming soon. downpipe i probably will not touch....
thanks, bill
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#67376 - 07/16/05 10:33 AM
Re: knock retard on my GT
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Member
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Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 1563
Loc: Ohio
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Drive normally but vary. Highway + city.
_________________________
[GONE] GenV GTP engine, 12" Brakes, CAI, 3" DP, HighFlo Cat, 180 T-Stat, Aeroforce Gauge, Front STB, Stinger Fiberglass hood, Reflective Graphics.
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