This is not a bash on either option but rather some observations,first off which kit will produce more power? with equal pulley sizes the Ass kit will produce more HP ,why your starting with a ported LIM and ported blower and by chance or not this design moves the injectors about 3/4 of an inch farther away from the intake valves which by all accounts gives better fuel /air atomization,now the cons the pulley system is adequite but not nearly as good as the stock L-67 setup,now as far as the top swap I would recommend this to anyone with higher mileage it would be a good time to get your heads freshened up and possibly ported and you would get a chance to look at the condition of your cyl. walls,if you plan on doing a cam at the same time I would say pull your motor and do a top swap a cam swap in the car is not that easy and you can freshen all gaskets when you have your motor pulled,like I said tyhis is not a bash or prop for either side but just some thoughts to ponder for people contemplating going FI .Chico.

Good info.

Wasn't there some complaints about the Ass kit availability?

yes

Chico- depending on how you do it. Porting the blower and LIM is not too difficult to do, i did it myself. Granted the installation seems easier with the Ass kit (i.e. instructions, CD) which is a very good thing. The Top-End swap has no instructions. But I liked having the piece of mind of having new head gaskets, valves, springs, retainers, etc. which make 1.9's or a cam much easier for the future. (Changing springs and retainers in the car is no fun, people who have done it both ways will agree) I think there are pros and cons to both ways, but it all came down to the fact that ZZP was constantly out of stock with their fuel logs.

Price for the ZZP ss kit
Install kit- $200
Fuel Logs- $380
Blower Porting- $200 + $400 core charge
Machined Intake- $175 + $100 core charge

Total- $955 + $500 in core charges. So depending on if you can get your hands on the M90 and LIM, it could be close to $1500.

Price for the Top-Swap:
Ed Morad's entire kit: $725
All gaskets- $225

Total- $1000

No core charges. Also, you dont have to pay shipping for the Blower and LIM back and forth from ZZP.

ordonez, got any info on the porting? I've got the M90 and lower intake sitting in my room right now, and porting them with my dremel would be great. Plus, with this cold spell I'm not getting back to the engine for almost a week.

i didnt port the inlet, but for the outlet, i just used the pic from ZZP's website and a few local members pics and used a dremel on it! Took some time, but it was rather easy

I couldn't agree more. I have 146k on my short block and when I pulled off my heads, the cylinder walls were absolutely perfect. no ridges or anything, but they could've been much worse and I was glad to know they were good for sure. I also had my new heads decked and cleaned, although I left them stock. The cam install took me all of 30 minutes give or take with the motor out of the car, pulling the motor (and putting it back in) is definitely a chore but it made the whole job much much easier, and also torquing the head bolts/rocker bolts etc is much easier on a stand.

I did the same thing. Take your time but use pics for a reference and have at it. Beats shipping back and forth and paying out the butt for it!

Just to add to the vs., what about a total engine swap? Pros/cons in comparison to a top end or M90 kit?

Have to swap the tranny too, and in most cases (I think) the wiring harness and PCM as well. The GT PCM cannot control the GTP motor or tranny since it's the 4T65e-HD. Definitely doable but I think it would be more of a PITA. Plus you're stuck with those crappy 2.93 gears :rolleyes:

I rode in a GTP the other day with a 3.4" and supporting mods... and the crappiness of the gearing blew my mind. I thought it would be so much faster than it was. It was definitely a fast car but I honestly believe my car would have no problem keeping up, even with the stock 3.8" pulley.

Yeah 3.29 gearing all the way! Screw 3.69 though.

Well a stock L-67 puts down about 195whp and a M-90 kit with a 4" pulley puts down 250whp so you decide ,the higher comp. of the L-36 block will make around 50hp over the L-67 block.Chico.

Compression!!! 9.4.1! You dont get that with an L67!

The M90 isn't the most efficient supercharger out there due to the heat it generates. The added compression is like dropping some pulley sizes without the additional heat. It's one of the reasons I've pretty much decided on getting my heads cleaned and probably around .010" knocked off the bottom. Resurfaces and bumps up compression a bit.

so if you do a ass kit from zzp what size pulleys should you do and what heads would be the best

depends on the mods with the car. I would start with a 4.0 or 4.2 with a near stock car

With the ZZP kit, there is no need to change the heads.

With a top end swap, I believe it is best to use stock heads and stock head gasket thickness. Since the compression is already higher, you can't really increase it any more without taking a big chance of causing serious problems with your motor.

x2, the LIM has to be grinded in order for the injectors to go into it, unlike the Top-swap, which uses GTP heads.

ok cause im looking at the ass kit from zzp and i was just woundering on the heads but you think the heads that i got now are fine and a 4.0 pulley is ok for now.. is the ss intercooler good to do now as well?

if you dont have an intake/exhaust work done i wouldnt recommend anything smaller than the 4.2. Even then, i would strongly suggest doing some of these mods before the M90 should be installed.

edit: yes, now would be the time to do the intercooler

well im looking at doing a cai and i was wondering would the tog headers and 3 RT dp be perfect

that would be perfect. with that you could run a 3.8 or maybe smaller, depending on the tune

ok what should be done to the heads anything? will the ass kit from zzp work for boost?

the heads dont move. they stay on the car. of course the SS kit will work for boost...thats what it is made for

should i replace the rockers or springs?

if you want? if you do 1.9's you have to do springs and retainers. i reccomend 105# springs and LS1 retainers. but they are no fun to do while on the car

so what type of gain will i get with the ass kit 3.8 pulley, gtp injectors, intercooler and the tog 3 dp?

FUN!

I think you should do more reading before jumping into this. You seem sort of uncertain about alot of the info and you really need to understand everything that's required before doing this. It's hard to just say "yeah, I'm gonna do the SS intercooler", because it's not that easy, the IC install will take a solid weekend, and even though it's shown to be a bolt on and go solution, it's still harder than you would think. The SS kit is designed to convert your car to a GTP of sorts, and it will make about 5 PSI out of the box.

The kit, once installed, will require tuning (especially if running GTP injectors and TB) for proper A/F and such. Just keep reading up on it and asking good questions like you have been but you definitely need to be ready for a BIG undertaking, especially if you're doing the IC. It's no small job.

ok i guess im a lil confused is there better injectors then the gtp? if using the ss intercooler should i go with the north*? or should i just go with the ss m90 kit for now and keep working on other mods?

look. it all comes down to money.

Yes GTP injectors are better.
If you have the money for an I/C, do it. If you have the money for a N*, do it. I cant afford either one, so i didnt do it, but if you have the S/C and TB and LIM out of the car, then why not do all of these crazy mods. But before you can even think about the I/C-North*, you need some exhaust work, tuning, Intake, etc.

Honestly, the N* isn't justified unless the blower inlet is ported. Likewise, it's all money. I'd love to have an intercooler and ported heads, etc. I elected to build it up all around, since the engine is outside the vehicle. But I'm pushing it right now with all the money I've spent, and I've still got $500 to throw at a PowerTuner and MPS when I get the cash next month or so (I just bought a laptop for my classes well... which kind of helps with tuning ). Do what you can with what you can afford. You can always add more later, but you can't get the cash back if you need it.

Hey dudes!!! I'm in the process of doing the top swap. And I just got the install kit, the ss MPS with ss 3.8 pulley and all the good gaskets from zzp. I'm going with the GTP heads so I dont need all the other stuff zzp sells. I'm also running GTP LIM, injectors/rails and 72mm TB with a P&P blower, front PEM and 3" "off-road" DP LOL sshhhhhh LOL. I'm going to try and run the 3.8 pulley with the stock L67 TB and with out the pem and DP till I get the rest of the parts. I'm running 94 octane and have a tuner. I should be ok running the 3.8 for now right?

Wait, so are you doing the SS, but doing the heads too. thats more of a top swap. shouldnt you run the L67 S/C pulley and not the SS.

Unless you are just going to do the top swap...and not do the harmonic balancer? i think i understand, but i dont think ive ever heard of anyone doing that way.

Good luck. And let me know if you have any questions about it.

If you have a tuner, then the only way to tell is to scan it. 3.8 might be a bit small. maybe you should go with a 4.0 or 4.2 if you are going to be on the stock DP and manifolds.

Is your u-bend out of there?

OK I have any of you look at the kit the W Body Store offers. Will this take care of all of your needs for a top swap

http://www.wbodystore.com/grandprix/w-body-store-supercharger-conversion-kit-p-157.html

that kit, if you add the install kit, will take care of everything you will need, but it is overpriced

that it is overprices....the choices for the unexperienced is a top swap which includes heads or the ss kit which just changes the upper intake manifold...... blacknredgt check the information listed in the zzp ss kit page be carefull yournot mixing the 2 up......also does ne one know if with the mods i have and just had my engine rebuilt if i purchased 1.7 rockers do i need to change springs or ne thing and is it pretty easy to install onto the puchrods?

are 1.7's ok with your cam?

im not sure thats wat chico sugjested its a very mild cam so im lookin for advice i have no idea

NOt good, I would email the place you are getting you Rockers from, and tell them the cam size you have jsut to make sure its all good.

yeah, too much lift=bad news

most guys running more extreme cams (XP) cant run anything higher than 1.6's without mod'd heads

His cam has a very mild lift thats why I suggested 1.7 rockers it would give him a lift about 507 which would require better springs ,ideally a cam change would be his best bet but the rockers would help if he retains his current cam,by the way gteisele you did ask for advice on a N/A setup not boosted so if you plan on gong FI I would suggest a different cam .Chico(Pops)

gteisele- i would probably say run some 105# springs and new retainers if you are going to do it.

That is something that is no fun in the car. You gotta keep the valves from falling.

Eh, I did the springs on the car. Not a big deal. Just buy the air adapter, you plug it into the spark plug hole in the head and run your air compressor, just a few psi will hold the valves up just fine while you change out the springs.

I dont know squwat about what lift to what cam yet so I cant be of any help there. But I did alot of research and I found that if you get the gtp heads you dont need the modified LIM or fuel rails. all you need is the custom standoff and pulley and the SS MPS with SS pulley so you dont need to pull the crank pulley and all that stuff. I also just got the install kit from zzp and asked for a 73mm L67 TB gasket instead of the L36 that comes with the kit. and I made sure I was geting the right tune with what I was running, and just emailing in my bin. So I am running half top swap and half ss m90 kit

Of course. if you do the L67 heads, then you need the L67 LIM and fuel rails. you are doing the top end swap.

But why are you doing the SS pulley? just so you dont have to remove the balancer?

all I have to do there is swap the aluminum coil pack bracket with the cast iron one (99 + only) and run the custom standoff with washer and idler pulley with the matched accessory belt to the ss pulley. and I dont really want to tear into all the pulleys until I need to, and then when I do I will allready have the MPS. also later on when I do swap to L67 pulleys I will be doing a cam swap aswell. right now I'm trying to get as much porting as I can done to everything before I do the install. I am going to paint It all too

yeah. i painted all mine while it was out of the car before i did the top-swap. I love it!